[timmyd112]

Hi all, I have asked a few questions on here and now I have a few more.
My car is:

1994 se416 manual LWB Vitara.

It has:
30-40mm lift kit from phriana off-road. On special. It has king springs and zf shock absorbers. I'm not to familar with brands.
-2inch body lift
-30 inch federal couragia mud tyres
-Bullbar and which
-Fuel tank and front diff bash plate
-rock sliders

After taking it out to my local area for a good 4wd drive to get a feel for the car. I found it really did bottom out a heap of rutted tracks that I feel if I had 30mm more clearance would work a lot better.

I'm wondering what the best method to get more clearance out of the car from this point on?

I'm thinking the Zook off-road coil spacer add on kit? Just to get the front and chassis higher?

Any help appreciated

[shakes]

I recently fitted 3" springs. rears are second hand well used 4art ones. fronts are new jimny bits. 4art are too stiff, I'll swap them at some stage for jimnybits.
Fitted because I belly'd out everywhere as well on old 40mm king springs.

Rears absolutely need longer arms and alot of trimming, along with bumpstops and shocks to suit lengths. At the very least you'll need an A arm spacer. So keep that in mind, otherwise your going to lose as much capability as you gain.
Front's you can 'just' get away without swapping the arms but it's not ideal.

I also run 31's. I'd like to go 32" skinny's, but gearing is just tolerable for the stuff we drive in vic. So depending on your driving style, you'll also need to budget this in as well. (and forget being able to sit on 110km/h up a hill)

[timmyd112]

Thanks, I'm hoping to put reduction gears and a rear locker by the end of the year. But I just wanted more clearance. I also am not sure if I was given the right front springs for the bullbar cause my CVS look pretty horizontal at the moment. How could I find out if my spring rate in the front is to soft and it's sagging

[shakes]

I’m guessing there will be measurements somewhere for lift, mine were pretty flat still at 40mm.
Pirhana are usually on the money.

Ive got a preference for front locker, I feel the front does more work and is off the ground more often.
Excuse to steel diff / stubby mod / Sierra centre / etc.

[Gwagensteve]

I’ll spend more time on a reply when I have a chance, but where are you driving? Where do you want to drive? What are the other cars you’re driving with running?

The lowest point on the car is the rear diff centre. While suspension lift will add useful clearance at the front crossmember the rear diff will soon show itself as the clearance limitation, and you’ve only added 25mm of clearance at that point.

You’re on the edge of a very steep investment for relatively small gains in capability

[timmyd112]

I understand the rear diff been the lowest point. I'm driving in Vic clay mud a lot of the time but also plan on some medium 4wding in the high country. I'm not afraid of putting money in as I plan to keep building this car slowly and might end up in the far future in doing a solid axel swap just for my own enjoyment of a project. But I normally am driving with some 60 series LandCruisers and may the odd sierra. All twin locked on 33s and 31s for the sierra.
The problem I had where I was driving was I had to scull drag the car on it's chassis rails. Which caused the exhaust to come off its mounts and a lot of clay pushed up into a lot of areas. If it was just the rear diff and maybe the front bash plate hitting , it would of been a much better time on the winch

[rpmwrx]

Have you considered shaving the rear diff?

[Gwagensteve]

3” lift (so 30mm on top of your 40mm now) is possible but will require lower control arms from someone like Calmini, OME struts (if they’re available any more) diff drop brackets, camber bolts and springs to suit. This lift height is detrimental to CV life and highlights the fairly poor geometry of the rear suspension. (It doesn’t generate much traction, I think this is heightened by raising the a frame mount on the diff.

You’ll also want the stubby axle mod for the RHS.

I have extensive experience with mixing and matching solutions to make the front end of a vitara work. They can work quite well but they’re still a bit fragile and it takes lots of work and $

[fordem]

Gwagensteve wrote:

OME struts (if they’re available any more)

They are - I've just installed a new pair - they were in short supply and rumored to be discontinued in the 2021~2022 period, when I contacted ARB USA directly I was told on back order with no ETA, but they are now available again - what I did notice about the one I just fitted is that they did not have the N103S part number stamped into the body, it was just on a sticker, but they appear outwardly identical to the ones I removed, and they "feel" right on the vehicle.

[Gwagensteve]

That’s good news, by far the best option for the vitara from what I’ve seen.

[timmyd112]

Ok so basically is this product worth getting and will it allow the car to still work well off-road? I understand it doesn't run other control arms.

https://www.zookoffroad.com.au/product- ... ift-kit-br

Or do I just

And the stub axel mod. I assume there is a post on here on exactly how to do that? And what is needed?I'm still looking for a steel diff housing at this point too.

[shakes]

timmyd112 wrote:

Ok so basically is this product worth getting and will it allow the car to still work well off-road? I understand it doesn't run other control arms.

https://www.zookoffroad.com.au/product- ... ift-kit-br

Or do I just

And the stub axel mod. I assume there is a post on here on exactly how to do that? And what is needed?I'm still looking for a steel diff housing at this point too.

That kit will do the job, or save your cash and buy the complete 4art or jimny bits 3” kit. Which you’ll do eventually anyway.


A dozen Stub axle threads will be found in search. Let me know if you struggle.

Gwagensteve wrote:

I have extensive experience with mixing and matching solutions to make the front end of a vitara work. They can work quite well but they’re still a bit fragile and it takes lots of work and $

I’m curious as to what your favourite recipe is?

[timmyd112]

Thanks l, I think for now I will go that kit. I just wasn't sure if it would cause other issues.

The stubby shaft I have found enough information. I just was struggling to find the right length to cut the donor inner cv?
And I keep seeing some info regards a bearing instead of that nylon bush. Is that something that can be purchased or needs to be machined?

[atari4x4]

Suss out my build, has worked well since 2006 & is still going.

[Gwagensteve]

timmyd112 wrote:

Thanks l, I think for now I will go that kit. I just wasn't sure if it would cause other issues.

Basically, that kit is one giant issue. Yes, it will lift the car. I question whether that's really the issue though (which I will discuss later)


The diff drop brackets are very useful, as are the camber bolts, both of which are available from other sources.

Supplying spring spacers without longer bumpstops is problematic and risks spring bind at full compression.

The shock relocators are there to stop the shocks wrapping onto the axle due to the geometry compromises caused by short arms.

Spacing the rear A frame with a parallel spacer with long bolts WILL result in broken bolts and a poor rear driveshaft angle. Increasing vertical separation at the diff end without increasing it at the chassis end generally lowers antisquat which reduces traction. Properly made A frame spacers (that's a relative term, it's a poor solution) correct the fore/aft position of the ball joint so the rear driveshaft angle remains correct.

Fitting front strut spacers will result in the CV's falling apart if you have OME struts - end result is very little of that kit will result in the car working better.

3" of lift with stock A arms really pulls the front wheels in (more lift=narrower track width) which is why the 3" kits (calmini, for example) come with new lower arms.


I think you need to take a step back and assess exactly what you want the car to do and how much investment and compromise is required to get it there.

With a rear locker your car is completely suitable for the high country as it is. There are very few difficult tracks (I'd say there are few tracks that are even "medium" in the high country.) the issue will be the highly trafficked and heavily eroded tracks closer to Melbourne. Note also that there are now lots of guys on these tracks with three tonne cars on 37's and no ability to modulate the throttle.

You're on small tyres by Victorian standards. 30mm in the suspension might make a difference some of the time but the car is still going to get caught up. Consider that it's only an extra 30mm when the car is stationary and level, once the car is in motion and moving on it's suspension it will vanish. The rear diff, front A arms near the wheel are still at the same point.

You still have open diffs and small tyres. with those limitation you're always going to see a twin locked car drive off into the distance (even if it only minimal ground clearance like a 60 series on 33's) because as soon as anything other than the tyres touch the ground you're going to get stuck - you don't have the traction to push the car past the obstacle with only two driven wheels. 30mm more suspension lift isn't going to dramatically change that. With open diffs and stock gearing you will have to travel fast to try and carry the car over obstacles which is hard on the car.

As has been mentioned, something like a skinny 32" tyre will give you more traction and 25mm more clearance everywhere at all times, regardless of what the suspension is doing.

Vitaras have a very wide track width and the body is very wide at the sills. (they actually have a wider track than a 60 series landcruiser) This puts you down in the bottom of the ruts that everybody else makes, unlike A Sierra which can sort of dance between the ruts a bit. Adding sliders generally makes the car even wider below the sill where you want the car to be narrow so it doesn't get caught on ruts. Years ago I made a set of steel sill covers for a LWB vitara (they looked like the black plastic sill covers, but were steel) which meant the sills were protected but the car wasn't any wider than stock. If the bottom of your sliders is 2" below the sill (and I bet it's more) you've negated the body lift entirely. If it's 70mm you only have 30mm more sill clearance than a stock vitara with your 30's. my point- 30mm more chassis clearance might make some difference, but you're still going to be jammed on the sills when the 60 series and Sierra can keep driving as they're narrower at the sills and (at least the Sierra) has miles more diff clearance.

Personally I would make lockers and gears a priority. With your body lift you already have enough room to clear a larger tyre like a 7.50 16 or 235 85 16 on a V6 vitara or GV rim. These modifications will let you slow down, it will give you line choices you don't have now so you can drive around the sill width and rut clearance issue more, and won't introduce issues around CV angles and suspension geometry. it will achieve the 30mm or so of chassis clearance you're looking for but ensure it's there at all times, not just when the car is stationary on level ground. It's also getting the back diff up out the way. It's also worth mentioning that a taller sidewall gives you more latitude to air the tyres down without loosing too much ground clearance. I would also fit diff drop brackets even if you don't add more suspension lift. Less CV angle is always better than more. I would also swap to OME struts which will add substantial front suspension travel.

Anyway, there's some thoughts.

[Gwagensteve]

Oh, I wouldn't recommend the 4.2 transfer gears. They're too low. 3:1 is plenty.

[shakes]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Spacing the rear A frame with a parallel spacer with long bolts WILL result in broken bolts and a poor rear driveshaft angle. Increasing vertical separation at the diff end without increasing it at the chassis end generally lowers antisquat which reduces traction. Properly made A frame spacers (that's a relative term, it's a poor solution) correct the fore/aft position of the ball joint so the rear driveshaft angle remains correct.

Steve, have you got any more thoughts around this.

Or even places you'd suggest I can do homework on the topic?

[Gwagensteve]

I don't have a lot of specific data but here is the in-progress spacer we made for CJ back in 2008



Measurements were CJs, I don't recall them now (it's been 15 years!)

We made this because the engineer didn't like the heim joint on the calmini kit and the bracket was cracked anyway, I can't recall if we actually fitted it in the end, it might have gone onto the 2.0 litre SWB he had.

As for what the sweet spot is it would need to be calculated out. Obviously the steeper the angle the A frame is on the more correction it will need, and there is scope to adjust the static pinion angle to ease rear driveshaft angle, which can be a bit problematic at 3" of lift. I know the axle swings well forward at higher lft heights which puts the springs on a funky angle and causes issues with contact with the bumpstops. Again, something the calmini rear arms address.

I you were super keen you could measure everything up with the car sitting on level ground and put all the numbers into the 3/4 link calculator accessible on Irate4X4. That way you could see the effect on actual AS% raising the mount has.

All up I don't love the rear end of the vitara. Just because its a three link/A arm like a Range Rover doesn't make it work like a Range Rover at all. They have short travel and don't seem to generate much traction - the front of a vitara tends to do more work. It's also worth noting that the GV has a 5 link design which, while also having very short arms, has a much lower roll centre.

TimmyD - for reference here is a potato photo from 2006 of CJ's old SWB on 7.50 16 Olympic steeltreks, V6 vitara steel wheels and the 3" calmini kit. No body lift. I think this is a very sweet spot for a vitara.



and here is a photo of Mock's Hum-Vit from 2003. No suspension or body lift, lots of bump stop spacing and cutting, 33 12.5's. Unfortunately this isn't really an option for the LWB as the rear door intrudes into the area that needs to go.



Here are all the parts CJ assembled for the stubby shaft mod. Not sure how easy it is to find those photos now

[shakes]

Gwagensteve wrote:

for reference here is a potato photo from 2006 of CJ's old SWB on 7.50 16 Olympic steeltreks, V6 vitara steel wheels and the 3" calmini kit. No body lift. I think this is a very sweet spot for a vitara.

Thats exactly where I'm shooting for. Nice to have some confirmation / bias.

Gwagensteve wrote:

I you were super keen you could measure everything up with the car sitting on level ground and put all the numbers into the 3/4 link calculator accessible on Irate4X4. That way you could see the effect on actual AS% raising the mount has.

Cheers, I'll google and likely do it for shits and giggles at some stage.

This seems a good reference for those following along.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzayUxQ ... uckleFilms

[Gwagensteve]

The easy way to imagine antisquat is like this:

High antisquat - the axle is getting pushed down towards the ground under power.
Low antisquat - the axle is getting pulled up towards the car under power.

Like every single suspension parameter, suspension can be made to work with high or low antisquat but it's part of the mix to consider when modifying something.

However, spacing up the ball joint doesn't just reduce antisquat, it raises roll centre, by exactly as much as the height of the spacer. (i.e a lot) Vitaras all ready suffer from a steep roll axis - the rear roll centre is high and the front is very low*. This is why they are prone to oversteer and feel nervous on higher speed corners.

In all of my meandering through suspension design and construction over the years, almost every desirable geometry characteristic is shared between road performance and off road performance. That is to say that the same principles for good performance apply regardless of the application. However, roll centre is where on road and off road geometry diverges.

On road applications look to lower the roll centre as far as possible. The result is that lateral G's have the minimum influence on the suspension geometry, (leaving the springs/shocks/antiroll bar to manage that. However, off road, a high roll centre makes the car more stable on side angles and "nests" the car into the obstacle. If the roll centre is very high, the car will actually drop down closer to the ground as the axle flexes, which is great. on top of this, for the car to body roll on a side angle, the body actually has to get pushed up the side angle, which is impossible. The result is that the suspension locks up and even with very soft springs and shocks, it won't flop to the low side. At low speed off road, this makes the car very trustworthy and stable.

However, on road, that leads to poor behaviour - we don't want the suspension to lock up under lateral G's because that means the effective spring rate becomes infinite, weight transfer is impossible to feel as the car doesn't body roll and the car will oversteer even at relatively low speed. Despite being amusing, this isn't actually very safe. Rock crawlers tend to have VERY high roll centres for the reasons I outlined. however, once they started trying to turn these rock crawlers into ultra4 cars, they found the high roll centre lead to rollovers and slow cornering speeds because the suspension stopped working.

So, raising the rear a frame mount potentially erodes suspension performance for the sake of lift height. This is a pretty universal issue with suspension lift - the more you add, the worse the car works* because the suspension is working outside of its designed range.

* yes there are two asterisks in the text above. Again, due to the individual quirks of the Vitara, it's about the only car ever where handling is improved by lifting the front suspension. As mentioned, the vitara has a very steep roll axis - front is very low like a FWD car, and the rear is very high (by comparison) As the rear of the car is lifted, ignoring the A frame spacer, the roll centre doesn't move. however, in the front, the roll centre rises as the suspension is lifted. this is great as it brings the roll axis closer to level. A calmini equipped Vitara actually drives better, in my opinion, than a stock vitara because the higher front roll centre means the car is better balanced. It won't corner as quick, it doesn't turn in as well, but it feels much more "together" - it feels more like a small 4WD than the front 1/2 of a sports car and the back 1/2 of a truck. Also, with Calmini springs and OME front struts, the car is much softer and more progressive.

Just more food for thought. They are a pretty complex car to get right due to the compromises Suzuki built into the suspension. I've said before I think Suzuki forgot how to make suspension after 1988, their designs became progressively more compromised and problematic.

[timmyd112]

Well that is definately food for thought. I think now I might just focus on reduction gears and lockers. It sounds like it's going to be better investment for the amount of gain I will get.
I think I'm also use to my sierra and knowing how easy it made things.

So do you think it is worth me doing the Hagen mod and also the stubby axel mod? Since I have the ability to do it myself? And if I go a front locker, would the Toyota cv mod thing be worth it?

Also I see Atari has used a bearing support, is that custom made?

[Polar_Bear]

yes bearing support is a custom made job. there is a nylon bush you can use instead of the bearing mod, which does a similar job at a lower cost & less rooting around

I wouldnt hurry into the hagen widening mod, i dont think its necessary.

Stubby axel mod is a good idea if you plan on working it hard enough to snap cvs.

I think a front locker can help reduce the chance of breaking cvs, by forcing both wheels to rotate at the same speed.. stops one spinning fast then coming to a sudden stop. i would try to find a steel front diff housing 1st.. swap out the alloy one, before fitting a locker.

again, toyota cvs might be worth it... I have the kit but havent fitted it yet as the terrain i drive on doesnt really break cvs.

[timmyd112]

Thanks,

I have got a steel diff housing now. However it came from an 04 grand Vitara. We're there any differences between diffs? And if I want to go to 26 spline do I use the cvs that came with it? To make the stubby axel?

I do have access to a lathe etc. So making a bearing support won't be the hardest job.

[timmyd112]

Hi,
Update:
I have driven the car a lot and enjoying it.
Over the coming year I plan on modding it more for my own enjoyment.

Question:
How strong is the driveline of the Vitara? (Gearbox etc.)
My goal is to get the car on 33s with only 2inch lift and then just do a virtual lift. Is the possible?
Currently have a steel diff housing, the hagen widening mod, got the stubby axel in the works. I'm going to get the 5:85:1 diff gears put in, to allow gearing for 33s, reduction gears in transfer for low range. I will purchase new control arms from calmini or 4x4art etc. and also the ranger/Hilux cv mod.

[shakes]

timmyd112 wrote:

Question:
How strong is the driveline of the Vitara? (Gearbox etc.) depends on terrain and how heavy your foot is. CV's are definitely questionable on 31's and above.
My goal is to get the car on 33s with only 2inch lift and then just do a virtual lift. Is the possible? anything is possible, all depends on your fab skills / depth of wallet. 3" suits vic conditions / ruts better for belly clearance. Shock length will set your bumpstop length, which will mean minimal cutting. So this all depends how deep down the rabbit hole your going
Currently have a steel diff housing, the hagen widening mod, got the stubby axel in the works. I'm going to get the 5:85:1 diff gears put in, to allow gearing for 33s, reduction gears in transfer for low range. I will purchase new control arms from calmini or 4x4art etc. and also the ranger/Hilux cv mod.

General uneducated ramblings from me as no one else replied.
7.5r16 > 33's. tall and skinny wins everytime.
I've stuck with 5.125's as i dont want to wait ~3months + when i blow a custom diff gearset. long gradual uphill 100km/h commute sections suck though

[atari4x4]

shakes, I see a 215/85r16 in your future

This was me seeing what 12psi looked like at the servo when brand new

[shakes]

atari4x4 wrote:

shakes, I see a 215/85r16 in your future

This was me seeing what 12psi looked like at the servo when brand new

Those rims are hot.

We need a 32"-ish over here now. 37" seems to be the standard for the penis extenders. and 30" means I belly out too much.

[Gwagensteve]

timmyd112 wrote:

How strong is the driveline of the Vitara? (Gearbox etc.)

Gearbox isn't seeing any more load than standard, they're pretty strong.
Transfer chain becomes an issue with reduction gears in the transfer as it does see more load. they have been known to stretch and jump teeth = carnage.
Otherwise, front diff strength has been discussed. Rear axle strength will be inadequate.

Quote:

My goal is to get the car on 33s with only 2inch lift and then just do a virtual lift. Is the possible?

What 2" lift are you referring to, suspension or body? LWB vitaras don't really respond to virtual lift as the surfaces the tyres contact are almost vertical - the pinch weld on the firewall at the front and the front edge of the rear guard in the rear. Even with a 2" body lift AND 3.5" Calmini suspension, 32" Simex 'pedes on a club members car required heavy, heavy hammering of the rear wheel arch door shut area in front of the rear wheel. we basically ran out of material to squish.

Quote:

Currently have a steel diff housing, the hagen widening mod, got the stubby axel in the works. I'm going to get the 5:85:1 diff gears put in, to allow gearing for 33s, reduction gears in transfer for low range. I will purchase new control arms from calmini or 4x4art etc. and also the ranger/Hilux cv mod.

I'd be very suspicious of those diff gears, and perhaps not without reason:

from a US forum ~2009

Quote:

"Brent (trail tough) hates 5.83's I have discussed them with him and he believes they break to easily.

BTW, 5.62's are still available from Suzuki. I believe Petroworks sells them too, at least they list the fronts on their website."

The pinion will be tiny, which is a design constraint, then there are manufacturing factors like material, heat treat, tolerances and surface finish.

Also, there's just not enough of them around. break one and you're out of action. I have experienced this - I found two 4.6 rears to go in my car as I wanted to raise my gearing off-road a touch. I had heard that 4.6's were weak and knew they were hard to get (carby auto only basically) but I rolled the dice. After something like three days driving I pulled the front down to grab the air locker and there were missing teeth on the crown wheel. Without being able to replace a 4.6 easily I went back to 5.12's as they're everywhere.

It's worth noting these are old and niche cars now. The number of people who wan hard core parts for vitaras (like driveline upgrades) was always tiny, it's now miniscule. Often, vendors are shifting old stock which may never be replaced. I'd be very reluctant to build a car around a ring and pinion that relies of a minimum number of orders to get a run made because you might never be able to replace it.

[timmyd112]

Well least it's not all bad news.

Rear axel strength, is a problem? I didn't realise it was that weak. Is there a chromoly option? Otherwise it's custom made if I went this path.

I run a 2inch body lift and a 30-40mm Dobinson lift to be exact

Ok the diff gears will be problem. Every forum I read no one ever even mentioned the diff gears. I thought they must be a new thing. I might speak to the supplier regards the quality. But if basic logic prevails and they are tiny then I guess it's not an option.

Surely someone on this site has had experience with the diff gears?

[vitzook!]

Can anyone help me find a set of diff drop brackets for a 90 SE SWB
Thanks Mark