I reckon leave the engine alone. They're amply powerful. Turbocharging will cost between $8K-15K once all costs are included and result in more torque than the rest of the driveline could possibly hope to handle.
So in my opinion, before you look at the cost of the turbo, consider:
I believe of the factory Vitara transmissions, only the AW-4 automatic could be considered trouble free under the torque loads a turbo J20 would deliver. The transfer case definitely will not be trouble free. converting to a hilux case would be the easiest option, using parts from the A340 toyota gearbox (mechanically very similar to the AW-4) The rear diff centre might last, the axles won't. A full float adapter is one option, the other might be to consider a late model hilux rear diff, which might be able to be narrowed slightly to match the Vitara rear centre offset. (slightly offset to the left) Earlier model hilux is too narrow.
If you intend using the car in 4WD, at the very least the front diff housing and axle housing will need to be replaced with cast steel items from a GV, with 26 spline axles. I'd highly recommend Hilux CV's/axles too.
Next, you'll need to consider room for a front mounted intercooler or water /air intercooler. There is very limited room in the front of the Vitara for an appropriately sized intercooler, and a turbo installation plus the added thermal load from the intercooler will seriously tax the cooling system. Using a top mounted intercooler is marginally effective, especially at low speed where radiant heat can actually turn it into an "interwarmer." If you are considering a top mount, drive around for a couple of hours with an inside/outside thermometer stuck under the bonnet where the intercooler should be.
These are all issues that are a by product of the turbo install. They don't address the expensive issue: Engine management. The J20 is a motor with relatively little aftermarket following. Engine management installation and tuning costs (not the cost of the computer itself) will likely equal the value of your vehicle as it stands.
I'm sure, with $8-$15K spend a very good outcome could be achieved, but to what end? A SWB vitara is a pretty evil handling car, so fast road use isn't advisable, and it can't run a large tyre* (and the J20 produces plenty of power for any off rod situation barring sand) so off road use won't be improved.
If you are purely a sand user and want to spank the dunes that's cool, it could be an interesting, (if expensive) project. I'd seriously consider a wet nitrous kit to investigate driveline (and drivability) issues with significantly increased power before you spend 8 to 10 times the cost of the nitrous kit on a turbo.
Steve.
* A J20 Vitara is basically limited to a 16" rim (although there are ways around this) and about a 32" tyre without significant additional work. 32" tyres add enormous driveline load by themselves. Adding a likely 80-100% torque increase into the high load the 32's can add to the driveline is a big ask. Read some build threads on here and check out the parts longevity for cars on 32" tyres.
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:04 am Posts: 5
Vehicle: Suzuki Vitara Jlx 1997 2.0L
Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:04 pm
Wow a lot ididnt know. A mechanic i know is selling a turbo kit off his 93 model vitara t25 turbo i just thougt i needed a different turbo manifold. He said you dont need a new ecu just a fuel regulator and adjust the electric distributer. He said it should be fine for nothing more than 7 psi but his engine was rebuilt. Kit for $450.
But like you said if other stuff will give me problems then i shouldn't do it as its my daily car.
He said you dont need a new ecu just a fuel regulator and adjust the electric distributer.
Thats one albeit fairly dodgy way of getting more fuel into the engine, driveability off boost would be terrible. (I had a soarer with a large turbo that originally had that method of fuel management, once i ran a tunable ECU the car was 10 times better.
Also a 93 vitara would be a g16 engine not a J20 unless your mechanic has done a motor swap.
Why are people so insistent on turbocharging Sierra's and vitara's?
Surely there a better things to spend the money on. If you want big wheels and hate the lack of power, use gears. If you are keeping stock wheels but want more power, engine swap to something more powerful, or just buy a beach buggy.
It puzzles me too. I think the 4.5 million photos on Facebook of every car ever made with a turbo mocked up on it has something to do with it.
I think theres a general belief that making manifolds is the hard/expensive part. This idea is reinforced by the people who run a boost referenced fuel pressure reg and call it good, with no actual dyno results to prove that the engine isn't being hurt or that the A/F is sound.
I've seen some terrible dyno curves from boosted cars with A/F all over the place - and they're the cars the owners have bothered to put on a dyno.
I'd prefer to work on the idea of need and first principles rather than want. If you ask the question "what do I need the car to do better" and "what's the simplest way to achieve that" there would be almost no turbo conversions attempted.
Joined: Mon May 05, 2014 11:50 am Posts: 1246
Vehicle: Vitara 1994
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:14 pm
Kor3y101 wrote:
Why are people so insistent on turbocharging Sierra's and vitara's?
Surely there a better things to spend the money on. If you want big wheels and hate the lack of power, use gears. If you are keeping stock wheels but want more power, engine swap to something more powerful, or just buy a beach buggy.
TBH it's easy to see the allure, especially when you consider how epic a well set up one will be in the dunes. The issue is people not realizing the complexity, the extra stress to other parts of the car and the fact a turbo still doesn't replace gearing. A J20 is already a powerful engine by Suzuki standards so for the OP I wouldn't bother.
Ive witnessed ungeared turbo zooks with over 100kw at the wheels unable to make it up dunes a geared up zook with stock 1.6 and a stock gv make it up with ease
Not really, correct gearing is the key. I can drop the clutch in 5th low and hold 6500 rpm the whole way up dunes with no run up. The power you need to substitute gearing renders the driveline unreliable
Joined: Mon May 05, 2014 11:50 am Posts: 1246
Vehicle: Vitara 1994
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:52 pm
MrRocky wrote:
Not really, correct gearing is the key. I can drop the clutch in 5th low and hold 6500 rpm the whole way up dunes with no run up. The power you need to substitute gearing renders the driveline unreliable
Yes and no. Although gearing is important There are some dunes the jimny will never be able to climb no matter what gearing I have due to not enough power.
But what does piss me off on the Auto is no 4th low. Sometimes I run out of speed, but can't use high range as the engine will bog mid dune
Yeah but you add a turbo to that auto and see how much more capable your car is sitting in the shed with the trans out. Add 6.5 transfer, 245/75r16"s on 6 psi and then tell me you have problems getting up dunes, plus you will have change in your pocket over boost
Joined: Mon May 05, 2014 11:50 am Posts: 1246
Vehicle: Vitara 1994
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:34 pm
MrRocky wrote:
Yeah but you add a turbo to that auto and see how much more capable your car is sitting in the shed with the trans out. Add 6.5 transfer, 245/75r16"s on 6 psi and then tell me you have problems getting up dunes, plus you will have change in your pocket over boost
Agree with the first part, hence why I bought the jimmy.
But no way a 6.5 transfer will work in the dunes I drive. I already have issues maxing out the cars top speed in low range as it is on stock gearing. More gears would help, but more power would help more. It's still a bucket load of fun as is though and can do 95% it the long steep dunes at 50+deg and 300+meters.
I do agree with your general msg though, gearing options should always be explored before power.
There is absolutely no doubt that more power (and a torque converter) own sand. This has been proven over and over again, on both counts. However, that's probably the only place this is true. Sand is also the place where engine load is very, very high so $$ spent on tuning and parts is required.
Elsewhere power is mostly irrelevant. My Sierra is not substantially more capable with 65Kw than it was with 36Kw. There were other good reasons for the upgrade though.
Joined: Mon May 05, 2014 11:50 am Posts: 1246
Vehicle: Vitara 1994
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:12 pm
Gwagensteve wrote:
There is absolutely no doubt that more power (and a torque converter) own sand. This has been proven over and over again, on both counts. However, that's probably the only place this is true. Sand is also the place where engine load is very, very high so $$ spent on tuning and parts is required.
Elsewhere power is mostly irrelevant. My Sierra is not substantially more capable with 65Kw than it was with 36Kw. There were other good reasons for the upgrade though.
This x10
For sand I have found it's also very important to have an auto that stays in the gear you put it into. Some cars even if you stick them in 1st or 2nd still change gears as the computer desires and causes the gears to hunt in the dunes which kills your momentum and results in many stucks. The Jimmy is very good in this regard you can bounce of limiter without the auto changing on you. If I just ran the car in D I wouldn't be able to drive 90% of what I can using the gears, figured that out the hard way.
FWIW the Vitara manual is an Aisin Warner AR5, better known as the Toyota R15x which many people run behind 2JZs and 1UZs. As an example of a fairly similar engine/weight/use, Toyota used the R151 behind the turbo 22r Hiluxes in the U.S.
Turboing a car can be done on the cheap but it involves a lot more thought, experimenting and risk. It helps if your time has no value to you.
For a turbo J20a on the cheap I'd look at;
TD04l-13T (WRX/Forester turbo) good condition second hand $150 Oil/water lines and adapters $100 Steam pipe log manifold with home made manifold flange $200 inc machining, bolts and gaskets. Intake piping (no intercooler, stock airbox) $50 Downpipe into stock/existing exhaust $100 Boost gauge eBay special $20
On top of that you'l likely need to upgrade the fuel pump, perhaps a new clutch ect.
Yeah you can do it cheaper with dodgy old T3s, J pipes and so on but the above is reliable and the turbo is modern.
That's the easy bit. From here it's a choose your own adventure, as I see it you have 3 options to get it running properly.
1. Hope and pray methods. Rising rate pressure reg/bigger injectors/hobbs switch fired injectors. This can and does work but might be shitfuckinghorrible to drive, you might run into ECU issues (eg limp mode from excessive manifold pressure(NFI if J20a is MAF or MAP)) but hey, it might all work well too. These can be done for under $100 but that does run with the assumption that you don't care if it blows up.
2. Megasquirt/whatever secondhand ecu you can pick up cheap and install/tune it yourself (say $500 to $1500 DIY installed) I'd have a wideband oxygen sensor ($300) and many many hours up your sleeve. You can get very good results here but you can also blow stuff up and spend forever chasing your tail with stupid issues. You'd have a very hard time finding a Dyno guy who will tune a megasquirt and they probably wont think much of whatever crappy 15 year old ecu you've picked up either. Remember you'l need sensors to go with the ecu + loom.
3. Talk to some dyno places, see what ECU they recommend, buy that, maybe install it or have it installed and have them tune it. Minimum head fucks, maximum drivablity but maximum price.
A T25 is a pretty old school turbo, you can do better for pretty much the same cost(though they aren't really worth anything, but $50 plus a rebuild and you might as well buy something more modern). I have a T25 because it was free. For your $450 your not really getting anything that suits your car or anything that's really worth anything. As a kit for a G16b it's worth something.
I think it's important for a Suzuki to have the right gear on sand, I don't think that's an issue in a manual J20a Vitara though. My Jimny (pre vvt) would have been much more capable for dune climbing as a manual because the auto has such wide ratios and the motor had such a narrow power band (4000+ or nothing). Your only option was 6700rpm (limiter at 6750) in 1st low at walking pace because it doesn't have enough power to pull a higher gear. You couldn't get a run up in second low and knock it back into first because it wont down shift until it's under 3000rpm so you're screwed either way. That's not to say it wasn't capable in dunes, just it could have been so much better.
Apparently the j20 runs 9.7:1 compression ratio. That's going to take some very careful timing control to prevent melting pistons.
Pretty sure the j20 is knock sensed. Funny story- the f6a cappuccino guys used to use the knock sensor to retard timing when they ran big boost. Yay! Big power without having to retune he ECU! :mind boggles:
The ways that people dodgy up road cars to run boost are never ending. Many of these cars will never see the kind of loads a car in 4wd on sand can deliver. The ramp rate on the dyno should be very slow to properly mirror sand use. It's nothing like doing a power run.
My J20A GV did not have a knock sensor. Not sure about the SV420. The earlier J20A in these cars did have different sensors and ECU to the later ones in the SQ
I'd say that would take more than a "few" mods - the SX4 uses a newer version of the J20A motor - head, cams, intake, exhaust & electronics are all different.
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