[Reubs]

OziIan wrote:

Reubs wrote:

So was this problem resolved?

G'day Reubs. Ummmmm ... got as far as running my finger under the pump and getting a drop of oil on it. Does that count?

Yup. If any oil is coming from the pump's breather pipe then the pump is stuffed.

What's everyone else think? If it's leaking fuel as well as oil then you will have fuel mixing in your oil - thinning it out.

Would the thin oil then start breaking past the seals causing your the leaks?

Years ago I had a G16 rebuild. Within a couple of weeks the engine started to make a rattle sound. Determined the fuel pump was leaking so replaced it and changed the then very thin oil. Problem solved. I figure either the pump wasn't the original one or being left off the engine and dry the rubber bits inside must have perished. I'm not saying this is your problem but worth a look as it fits the symptoms nonetheless.

[OziIan]

Reubs wrote:

Yup. If any oil is coming from the pump's breather pipe then the pump is stuffed.

Before we all go off on a tangent ...
Didn't explain that too well. Oil appears to be from where the pump body meets the engine/rocker cover whatever.
Wait till I've had a better look

[OziIan]

OziIan wrote:

Before we all go off on a tangent ...
Didn't explain that too well. Oil appears to be from where the pump body meets the engine/rocker cover whatever.
Wait till I've had a better look

Had a look and tested pump. Still a smear of engine oil where the pump meets the engine. Can't determine the source without removing pump, I guess.
There are three pipes on top of pump which I reckon are fuel in, over-pressure fuel back to tank and fuel to carbie. There was no diaphragm breather pipe I could find. Can I assume bottom of diaphragm breathes to inside engine?

All three pipes held vacuum (ie suck) without leakage. By my reckoning if there is no air leakage from the fuel pump system, there can be no fuel leakage into sump. ie Pump is OK.

Not a waste of time, though. It's another possible source of the fault positively eliminated.

Thanks, guys.

Regards, Ian.

[Fatzook]

Can you test those fuel lines under pressure? That is after all what they see under normal running conditions.

[OziIan]

Fatzook wrote:

Can you test those fuel lines under pressure? That is after all what they see under normal running conditions.

I take your point, Fatzook- but in reality, only one line should be pressurised - the line to the carbie. Unless I've missed something about the way the Suzi pump works, the regulated pressure to the carbie should be quite low - I'd expect less than 10 PSI - typically 3-5 PSI.

I don't have any way to measure carbie supply pressure, so is that a correct assumption?

The the pressure relief return line to tank should be virtually at tank pressure, the supply line will be negative pressure (lifting fuel from the tank).
I understand all this changes because of the tank being sealed for pollution reasons, and and the fuel system often will be pressurised above atmospheric.

However, an air leak is a leak is a leak whether you're blowing or sucking.

However ... there is no smell of petrol in the oil (or anywhere for that matter), or in the PCV breather line to the air cleaner and the oil analysis confirms low hydrocarbons (=petrol) in the oil. I'm now reasonably confident there isn't a fuel leak into the oil. I think I'll let this line of investigation rest for the moment.

Thanks for the thoughts, though.

Regards, Ian

[OziIan]

G'day all. Don't know if anyone is watching this post, or if anyone cares.

To finish off the post.

I had a long and acrimonious email 'discussion' (spanning about 4 months) with the Hobart mechanic.
# They had the local Repco bloke replace the rocker cover gasket and seals which slowed the oil leaks somewhat, but didn't completely stop all of them.
# They threw in a 'free 5k service' for my inconvenience. Whoopdi Do!
# They refused to acknowledge there was anything wrong with the engine - basically if it's going OK without a major failure, it's OK.
# They refused to accept Repco Authorised Service Vic/Tas manager's recommendation to have the engine stripped and checked here in Bairnsdale. If no fault found I would pay, if fault found, they would pay.
# They found, and used, every 'used car salesman' type of dirty trick, even going so far to imply that it was "my super-sensitive hearing" that was the problem, not the engine.

# They eventually made a carefully worded offer that they would 'look at the engine' (whatever that means) provided I return it to them in Tasmania. They (mis)quoted clause 10 of the Repco Authorised Service guarantee which they claimed stated I had to return the vehicle to them. (It doesn't say that at all - see below.)

Understandably, I had to reject that offer due to the expense of getting the car there, the costs of accommodation (I'm sure it would take them weeks to get around to having a look at it) and most importantly, whether there was anything wrong or not, they only had to SAY there was nothing wrong with it - charge me a fortune for the privilege of doing nothing, then impounding my vehicle under "mechanic's lien" if I didn't pay.

The "Repco Authorised Service Nationwide Guarantee" isn't worth the paper it isn't printed on. It was neither printed on, nor referenced to, by the Jackman's Warranty Invoice. It IS available on-line, and even then it is very difficult to find. Clause 10 states:
[Quote]
10. In all cases, the responsibility for attending to, or accepting any claim lies with the workshop where the work was performed originally. That workshop may, at their discretion, authorise another workshop in the network to carry about warrantable repairs on their behalf where it is not practical to have the work carried out by the original Centre. [Endquote]

Despite legislation by Federal Government (Consumer's Rights), despite having a Consumer's Affairs Victoria review the case, despite VCAT here in Victoria MAY have provided a ruling that I can recover costs the CAV and VCAT have no jurisdiction in Tasmania.

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING MORE I CAN DO - except continually hearing the worsening clunking sound every time I drive Suzi.

ARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!! I have to kiss that $4000 goodbye.

Now to name names.
The garage in Hobart was Jackman's Garage, Moonah, Hobart - Owner/Manager/Director:- Graham Cooper.
The reconditioners were (supposedly) JustJap Engines - although I can find no Tasmanian info about them - they seem to only be in Adelaide.

The bottom line is this
Do it yourself - that way there is no-one to blame if it isn't right!

The noise is now worsening - detectable under acceleration, hot or cold.
I still believe there is a partially blocked oil gallery to one or more bearing(s) - everything seems to point to that conclusion. There was abnormally high silicone level in the oil - possibly from a blockage?

Last thing I'm going to try is vastly different oil grades - 0W30 (lower viscosity when cold should allow oil past a blockage more easily) then 40W50 or something (should provide better lubrication in a loose-fit bearing?).

LAST REQUEST (on this topic, that is ... )

IF anyone IS reading - can you give me an idea of what max oil pressure to expect?
Currently getting over 70 PSI (cold) @ 2500 RPM, dropping to about 50 PSI (hot) @ 2500 RPM and about 20 PSI (hot) @ idle.

The 70 PSI seems high. I haven't been able to find out what the inbuilt bypass pressure limiter is set to. I had thought 50 PSI would be about right.

Any ideas / help will be appreciated.

Again - thanks to everyone who provided thoughts and help to solve my problem.
Regards, Ian B

[shep]

Oil leaks are due to not using the recommended weight oil and I bet the rattles are a rocker shaft hold down screw falling out like they do.

[losfer]

70 psi cold is fine , and all the other readings you are getting are normal.

can you replicate the noise while free revving the engine in neutral ?
if you can i can tell you a way to pinpoint over what cylinders the problem is and whether it is piston slap or big ends..

[buzbox]

Just thought I'd mention that have had 3 blocks taken in for rebuilding 1 was already bored out to max specs so it was no good. The other two had cracks between 3-4 cylinder down by the crank.

Hopefully engine #4 is all good. I'll soon find out.

[stockman]

OziIan wrote:

Now to name names.
The garage in Hobart was Jackman's Garage, Moonah, Hobart - Owner/Manager/Director:- Graham Cooper.

He looks like he should of retired from the game 15 years ago.

"Your Expectations Met...
No Surprises"

[offroadjack]

sorry for being straight to the last post on here...engine knock on a 16B is pretty common and nothing to worrie about. i suggest to run it on castrol GTX 15W40 ... it's an oil i have always used and has never ever let me down. we used to put it in the vitara's that had the same problem and reduced it dramatically! it usually knocks on a cold start but when its warmed up its gone.. like i said i just jumped into this one and dunno what has been posted before.. just talking from experience and working at suzuki for 7 years...

[OziIan]

WOW GUYS. Thanks for the interest. I was sure no-one would be interested. Comments in order

shep wrote:

Oil leaks are due to not using the recommended weight oil and I bet the rattles are a rocker shaft hold down screw falling out like they do.

I agree to a point - naturally thinner oil will squeeze through small gaps. BUT the previous rebuilt engine remained bone dry for all its 12000km after rebuild, so it obviously is possible to build a leak-free engine. We'll see what happens when I do the thin oil / thick oil tests. I'll check rocker bolts too (was going to re-check valve clearances anyway).

losfer wrote:

70 psi cold is fine , and all the other readings you are getting are normal. can you replicate the noise while free revving the engine in neutral ? if you can i can tell you a way to pinpoint over what cylinders the problem is and whether it is piston slap or big ends..

Thanks for pressure confirmation. While there is slight noise when idling and also at 2-3kRPM, it is most obvious when mildly accelerating when cold.

buzbox wrote:

Just thought I'd mention that have had 3 blocks taken in for rebuilding 1 was already bored out to max specs so it was no good. The other two had cracks between 3-4 cylinder down by the crank. Hopefully engine #4 is all good. I'll soon find out.

Uh-uh. That means I'll have to keep looking for a good block. Seems more and more like I'll have to do a complete rebuild myself.

stockman wrote:

He looks like he should of retired from the game 15 years ago. "Your Expectations Met... No Surprises"

Yes. I see you found his slogan which I couldn't be bothered mentioning above. I had considered reporting this to Consumer Affairs for deceptive advertising - in fact the whole Repco Authorised Service warranty is shonky in my opinion - especially clause 10.

offroadjack wrote:

...engine knock on a 16B is pretty common and nothing to worrie about. i suggest to run it on castrol GTX 15W40 ... it's an oil i have always used and has never ever let me down. we used to put it in the vitara's that had the same problem and reduced it dramatically! it usually knocks on a cold start but when its warmed up its gone.. ...

The only reason I'm worrying is that the engine was PERFECT when I drove it out of Jackmans, developed a detectable 'knock' within 300km and has become consistently worse ever since. That's the part I don't like. Something changed pretty quickly and is still changing IMHO. In my experience that shouldn't happen with a refurbished engine if it was done properly in the first place.
Absolutely agree with you about Castrol oils - I ran a Triumph 2000 on Castrol for all of it's 300,000+ MILES on original head gasket, rings and bearings. 300k miles was when the speedo cable broke, and I never replaced it ... ran car for another 4 years or so ...

Again ... thanks for feedback, guys.

[elky]

with the car running, try pulling the leads off one at time, if there is a bottom end knock the loss of compressive load on that cylinder should make it go quiet, the fact that it developed 300km down the road sounds like the running in of the motor has exposed clearences that are a little looser than required, of course 3 motors all suffering the same condition does not refect that

could it be possible the fuel lines have been swapped either at the intake or tank? or even tank pressure building up causing fuel flow back through the return line?

it is common with gemini engines to rattle themselves to death becuase of swapped lines which ends up diluting the fuel

cheers

[alien]

farrrrr out, what a saga... hopefully your most recent shop comes to the party and replaces the engine for you.

If not, perhaps its time to look at a h20 or h25? It'd certainly make your towing a bit more pleasurable.

[OziIan]

Thanks elkie & alien.

Ummmm ... Alien, that would mean dealing with a mechanic - I think you will understand why I'm not overly enthusiastic. It's me or nobody.
I'm really happy with a G16 engine (when it is running as Mr Suzuki intended ) It's all I need. Suzi is, for me, a get around-vehicle we trailer behind our motorhome and which allows us to get to places a little more difficult than a 2WD can cope with. 90% of its time it's a commuter vehicle.
I really don't want to do a major engine swap-out to a V6. A diesel G16 would suit me JUST FINE!!! In my dreams! However, I'm actually thinking of a late model Baleno engine - it seems they also have the G16B engine

Was there ever a carbie 16 valve G16B?
Can my existing inlet manifold bolt onto a Boleno head?
I haven't investigated that far. Maybe one of you more cleverer blokes has.
[Before anyone asks why carbie, simply this. A carbie I can (maybe) strip and clean in the middle of no-where, a failed ECM or injector I can't.]
Comments anyone?

Tried the spark plug lead thing, elkie, and results were a bit inconclusive when stationary. I couldn't detect a change other than the obvious uneven running.
I feel the fuel thing may have been a bit of a tangent. The top end performance (ie rings, valves, plugs/leads/timing & fuel mixture) is fan-bloody-tastic. Oil usage is less than 1/2 a litre in 5000km (I don't have to add oil between changes). Economy is good (about 8.5 Litres/100 overall) on & off road performance is good- I don't believe that wouldn't happen with fuel starvation. It's just that I know something isn't right inside the engine.

Thanks, everyone, for comments.

[Rhinoman]

OziIan wrote:

Ummmmm ... got as far as running my finger under the pump and getting a drop of oil on it.

Thats not a good sign, does the oil smell of petrol at all?

[northdude]

after reading through all this heres a couple of things to think about 1st the head bolt thing the heads that you dont retourqe are called tourqe to yeild head bolts do a search on them the permaseal web sight has some good tech info on it ok 3 engines same problem id find it unlikley to be silicon blocking an oil gallery in all 3 engines is it 3 engines or 2 engines ive read both through this thread the one common thing from what ive read that hasnt changed through out your saga is your useing the same oil i build engines as part of my job and i wouldnt run oil that thin in my own engine i use either a 20/50 or 15/40 the other strange thing is that the oil pressure seems to high if it were a majour bearing problem were you actualy told what had happened to the other engine when they rebuilt it its hard to tell with out seeing a nd hearing it in person is the noise a rattle/clatter or thump or heavy knocking is there any vibration with the noise have you thought about checking to see if the flywheel is tight

[Rhinoman]

OziIan wrote:

it seems they also have the G16B engine
Was there ever a carbie 16 valve G16B?
Can my existing inlet manifold bolt onto a Boleno head?
I haven't investigated that far. Maybe one of you more cleverer blokes has.
[Before anyone asks why carbie, simply this. A carbie I can (maybe) strip and clean in the middle of no-where, a failed ECM or injector I can't.]
Comments anyone?

There was a carbie Swift in some markets but really the injectors are very reliable and so too are the ECUs on the 16Vs, why not just carry spares?

[tazmanier]

Howdy Ian, could you mabey put a video of it on youtube so we can hear the noise?

[Goldnomad]

G’day Ian,
I’ve had the pleasure-yes, pleasure- of just fully rebuilding a G16 that I bought through ebay.
GM Bendigo reco’ed the head for me and fitted (supplied by me) new valve guides, then they pressure tested with new valves in(this is their standard “crack test”) and machined the head.
I assembled it including new rocker shafts and valve guide seals. I replaced the shaft screws with allan-key type then centre punched the edge of the head pillars against the screws to jam the screws in.
The block –a G16A -was tested by them also and found to be cracked in TWO places. I sourced a new G16B block, big end bearing caps and bolts from Engine and Transmission Parts P/L in Campbellfield, Victoria ph (03) 93570854. I have no affiliation with these people but can and will recommend them.
The block was cleaned and crack tested for me. I only had to hone it as it was still a standard bore in excellent condition.
I fitted new pistons, gudgeon pins, rings, bearings, full gasket kit, timing belt, water pump and oil pump. The crankshaft is the original G16A unit that I had ground down 10 thou.
Now, some observations for you to consider re your dramas.
1. The G16A bearing caps are usually made of aluminium alloy and have a steel stiffening girdle attached under the bolts on each side.
Perhaps these were left off your motor and weakened the integrity of the block and caused it to crack although cracking of a block is usually an indication of overheating..
2. The G16B bearing caps are usually steel and do not have girdles.
3. I believe your oil relief valve should cut in at 50PSI so your pump achieving 70+PSI seems a bit odd
The relief valve can be removed and cleaned.
4. It’s also possible you may have a cracked vane in your oil pump.
5. A magnetic sump plug will tell you if you have metal in your oil.

I may be way off the mark but with your problem I think we need to think outside the box.

Good luck

Robert

[losfer]

70 psi is fine when the engine is cold because the oil has a very low viscosity . As the oil heats up and becomes more viscous the pressure will drop generally to 20-30 psi , so your relief valve "cracking" at 50 psi doesnt ring true .

According to the workshop manuals there is no definative "too high" or "too low" oil pressure at idle , or when the oil is hot or cold , the test is to see if you have ~50 psi at 3000 rpm hot . believe it or not the oil light comes on at about 5-8 psi . generally when the oil light comes on is because you have either no oil , or the relief valve has become stuck open . I have never seen a cracked oil pump rotor in a G series suzuki EVER , and trust me ive seen A LOT.

[OziIan]

G'day everyone. I never cease to be amazed at all the help and enthusiasm out there for someone with problems. It is TRULY appreciated.

Rhinoman: No smell of petrol ANYWHERE under the bonnet, or out the breather hose, etc. It may well have been oil from the rocker cover leaks blown/seeping up to the pump.

Northdude: and a refresher for others. Quick summary. 3 engines - original G16A engine (Engine #1) made a slight noise but at 220000 km I was not duly worried. Decision to rebuild based on kms and major oil leaks front & rear. #1 block was cracked at 1-2 main (= noise I could hear?). Another G16B short was refurbished and fitted with original tested parts, new bits as needed (I hope) = Engine #2. #2 developed the familiar noise at about 12,000 km but otherwise all was OK. #2 Shat itself big-time in Tasmania (oil in water, water in oil) and fearing another cracked block I opted for a full refurbished (?) engine = Engine #3. It is #3 that developed the (now VERY familiar) bearing-like noise at less than 300 km, and which was the cause of the Jackman's dispute and my cry for help via this forum. The sound to my amateur ears is the same, but I agree the cause may not be silicone. Re oil - there has been a variety of oil grades used (from memory) in the 15W40 to 20-40 range. The ranges I mentioned recently were to see if I can get any ideas from using different oil grades. Yes, I would normally use something around 20W40. Re flywheel. No vibration - noise occurs when cold and under acceleration. Would a loose flywheel create these symptoms?

Rhinoman: Thanks re carbie Swift. Obviously I would prefer to stay with bolting on my existing inlet and outlet manifold to avoid the complications of buying a new inlet manifold, having to change wiring looms, adding ECUs etc. I've worked in electronics all my life and I have a healthy regard for the failure rate of electronics, especially in a very harsh environment - ie under a car bonnet. Sure, spares would be a back-up solution.

Tasmanier: Hey - you're asking a lot of a tired old brain that doesn't like social media! [Yeah - I HAVE been called a troglodyte! ] Anyway, it has already been done by another Vitara owner somewhere out there with an identical sound - came across it the other day. Did I bookmark the link? I'll post if I re-find it in my browser's history.

Goldnomad: Now there's something I didn't know about the bearing caps. No straps on a G16A bearing may explain a bearing-like noise suddenly occurring and getting worse. Do these straps ever break after installation, etc.? Lot of good info in your post - thanks. Re oil pump - that is how I understand things - but didn't know pressures.

Losfer: Hear what you say. I would have thought, however, that seeing the pressure relief valve (PRV) is within the pump body, the oil pressure should be limited to no more than the PRV value - irrespective of oil viscosity & temperature, clogged filters, blocked engine galleries, etc, etc.. Hence my comment that I felt 70+ PSI was high, and MAY indicate a faulty PRV or blocked PRV gallery (hence thinking a blob of silicone). What you say about finding a set of specs for the Suzi oil pump is as I have experienced - there seems to be none. I can go along with 50 PSI @ 3000 RPM hot - I've seen similar pressure data for the Sierras, but none for Vitara's.

To all who have responded I wish to re-state the thing I cannot dismiss. The noise, which I'm certain is within the engine, developed fairly rapidly. I became aware of the change (going from a perfect sweet Suzi humming sound to a distinct noise of an old clunker engine) within a kilometre or so when about 100-150 km from Jackman's. [I usually say less than 300 km simply because that was the approx distance I travelled that day back to our camp at Longford.] That noise has remained ever since and has become worse. All other things (oil leaks, oil pressures, etc etc) I believe are red herrings. Something changed rapidly within the engine, I don't know for sure what it is, and it's p...... me off immensely!

My thought at this stage is to do the easiest things first.
1 check for loose rocker bolts and check/set valve clearances
2 Remove/check PRV?
3 check if anything changes with thinner or thicker oils.
4 I have to replace inner/outer CV boots and do routine oil change very soon. Maybe I should drop front diff and sump while I'm at it and have an optic at the bottom end?


Thanks again for all those comments, thoughts and ideas.
Ian

[OziIan]

Got it!
Video of similar engine sound. I don't know what causes this noise, but I recognised the sound immediately.
Difference is I don't have as loud a noise at idle, but it SOUNDS the same sort of "clunk" I get at 2000-3000 RPM when cold and under mild acceleration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQNH8jTn ... re=related

Cheers, Ian.

[ball]

Get yourself an oil sample kit and send it in. They will tell you what sort of contaminants are in the oil which should allow you to pinpoint any problems

http://www.oilcheck.com.au/technical/di ... -oils.html

[JrZook]

There's results of an oil sample on the first page I believe.

[ball]

JrZook wrote:

There's results of an oil sample on the first page I believe.

TL:DR

[northdude]

good idea do simple stuff first depending on how mechanicle you are while youve got rocker cover off check the height of valve stems on them when the valve is fully closed have a look at the spark plugs see if they are damaged on the ends when you drain the oil drain it into a very clean container if the oil is a silver colour your probably going to have to pull the motor out again even take the fanbelts off and start it up and see if the noise goes away have a good check around the exhaust manifold or whatever you are running for leaks or cracks is there any chance you have any of the old engines so you could do an autopsy on one

[OziIan]

G'day Northdude.
The mechanicie part isn't the problem - I feel (reasonably) comfortable rebuilding an engine. It's the time and Suzi out of action I don't have. That's why I trusted "real" mechanics. Fail. Hence now looking for a complete G16B 16 valve motor to rebuild whenever I can then do a quick swap - IF carbie manifold matches. AND I get to keep/inspect engine #3 as a bonus!
Valve stems - good thought - thanks
Plugs - done - was looking for oil discolouration - all look OK and even colour.
Oil drain - yes - was going to get it analysed anyway to see if there is any change. After taking sample was going to run oil through a coffee filter cone for signs of metal pieces. BTW even at 5000 km oil looks good - just a slight brown colour on the dipstick. But - hey - I'm used to looking at diesel oil!
Belts - yes - worth a try. Memo to self - Don't drive too far without fanbelts - don't need a warped head as well!!!
exhaust manifold - previously checked when cold - seems OK
Old engines - sadly no.

Good suggestions there, Northdude. Thanks.