[douglasgiersch]

Am currently making my own version of FATZOOK's roll bar/ hard cover.

This one is FATZOOK's once i saw it i knew i had to make it. Was firstly going to make it bolt to the floor of the vehicle for bit more strength but to keep the profile of the B-pillar and to bolt it to the floor aswell would be a massive head ache. The Larger bit folowing the b-pillar on mine is 42x 140 x2 oval rail and the 4 braces i guess are 52x60x2 oval rail the plate is 140x5 and will have a lid from 5 check 1.7 ally checkerplate. Yes i do know that it wont be very strong with all the cuts ect and is 2mm is abit thin but its more of a sports bar i guess, , And anything is stronger than the factory b-pillar

First days effort, got the basic shape, at this point i was going to bolt it to the floor so i cut the edge of the tub to go strait down, which is now not needed. But has made tacking in place heaps easier, Used some 40x40 SHS and some clamps to hold up the bar and get the right profile, there is 5 cuts in the top bar, chould have made it just one but it made the bend to obvious, i made slices's with the drop saw, the middle one was then butted back up and tack but then the 4 outside ones had a spacer in the middle to lessen the angle. I was really happy with the curve this gave me.

Of course being a Zook nothing is simple and the b-pillar isnt dead strait, has a slight bend towards the front of the car and towards the inside of it aswell, two cuts where made on the inside of the bars to bring the rail in following the b-pillar's profile. also tried my best to keep the same distance between the bar and the pillar by using a precsion tool (head of abolt) just jamming it in every now and then to make sure it haddent moved.
The actual corners of the bars where achivied but a series of cuts with the cut off saw/drop saw and welded back up, again this chould have been achieved witht he single cut but didnt produce the look i was after.

Was going to go just with the one but i like the look of the two, beefs things up abit, was a real pain that i brought wider steel for this section then the overhead bar bit, made getting the knotch abit more difficult but nothing the grinder cant fix, would be alot eaiser with a good set of hole saws but i dont have any so i made do with what ive got. Not sure anymore on weather or not to run a bit of 12mm rod parrell to the edge of the tub under the small brace of not.

Did have a similar pipe/rod set up to FATZOOK in pretty much the same fashion with 12 and 10mm rod, wasnt very happy with the way it welded up though and was very hard to get a good beed on it, so for simplisity i decied for a oval rail braces, looks abit to big in the picture, has similar curve in it to the top of the bar as i didnt like the look of dead strait, may look different once i have a lid of the tool box/cargo area thing tub i guess. Also made a spot for my brake light out of the smaller rail, once again putting a cut in it with the cut off saw an welding it back up, also cut both ends on 45 and boxed them back up, i was pretty happy with it.
Am thinking of putting braces in the top left and right corners for a bit of support and for some indicators but the bend in the corner is roughly 120 degres and the our cut off saw only does 45 and i cant seem to get my head around how i chould cut a bit of oval rail to sit in the corner i know theres a way but i cant for the life of me figure it out.
Also am at a dead end weather or not the make the tailgate flush (weld it up) really do like the look of a shaved tailgate, but worried about sealing it up properly and getting to the 2 rear body mount bolts.
Really would appreciate any comments and thoughts on the Bar so far (unless your telling me it wont do stuff all in a roll over bla bla bla) other than that would love to hear any comments and tips. And FYI so far it has cost me bit shy of 300 bucks but take 50 bucks out for bolts i wont use yet and i only need 1/3 of a 130 sheet of ally plate. and have a heap of 12 and 10mm rod left over. so i would say a bit over 150 bucks plus welding rods grinding disc and fair bit of blood sweat and beers.

[Fatzook]

Looking good. I hated making mine due to all the segment welding, and I'm in pain just looking at your pics, but atleast you are taking the time to get it right

For strength.....

Laminate the UNDERSIDE of the top 2 bends with 5mm plate, rolled to sit flush. This will help hold the bend together by itself, but if you want proper roll support, add some diagonal bracing from the laminating plate, down to the floor on opposing side. Then weld in your head board around it. Its as good as you will get without making an actual cage.

[Fatzook]

As for the shaved rear tailgate, I didn't have any issues accessing the body mounts from inside, but it was a PRICK of a job welding to the new tail panel to the tin foil body panels, so take it very slowly.

[douglasgiersch]

Thanks mate, how did you go with sealing it up as far as dust when i drive alot of dirt roads with bulldust and i would be forever changing gas struts in the lid not to mention all my pretty pennies vacuming the back all the time, as far as stregth goes i think its deffinatly more of a sports bar, will hopefully be getting a decent internal bar made up to go on the inside of the pillar get it bent up properly and bolted down so i can have a bit more security. If i look real close at your pic i think i can spot a bit that might of needed a bit of bog haha would be a deffinate challenge with the stick to weld it up, seeing as you had trouble and youve got quite a few more years behind the hand peice then me.

[Fatzook]

Yeah no bog was used in mine, but a thin wipe would have finished it off nicely. I had a bit of rust around the hinges, aswell as some other goose' 'repairs' to deal with, which made my job infinately harder.

As for the bullsdust, I had a thick adhesive backed foam rubber running around the top edge of the tub, and a rubber seal on the underside of the lid. The cross break in the lid helped keep the lid rigid, and make a possitive seal against the rubber. This also allowed me top top load the lid. I could jump on it, and I'm 120kg's. The tail panel was sealed with seam sealer ( sikaflex). I also added internal skins and false floor made from 12mm MDF, and carpeted them. Was nice and quiet, and was completely sealed and locked.

[tonyevans]

Looks good on Purple Peril now Fatzook and yes I was standing on the back yesterday re-installing the light - BTW it is a brake light is it not or is it a white light to light the boot up?

Tony

[Fatzook]

You mean the one in the hoop? High mount brake light. The top was made for a coily. They come with the 3rd brake light, so I decided to keep it for ADR purposes. I had a 12v fluro mounted under the lid for internal lighting.

[tonyevans]

I thought so - I have a 12v strip led to go in the boot.

[Twappett90]

Has anyone made a hard cover lid like this for a vitara?

[Fatzook]

Twappett90 wrote:

Has anyone made a hard cover lid like this for a vitara?

Not that I am aware of. I thought about making one for mine, but since I plan on selling the car in the next few months, ICBF.

You could always buy on of these >>> http://www.rallytops.com/suzuki/sidekick-2-piece-sport-top.html

I just hope they fit better than their full roofs do

[Twappett90]

Cheers for the link those fiberglass ones look pretty crappy IMO haha plus if I was gunna spend that uh would probably just get the whole hardtop roof. I think I might have a go at making a checker plate one I have a heap of sheets of it laying around just not sure how it's gunna look because the factory targa bar curves more into the back section than the Sierra. I'm really just looking for a good way to secure my tools in the car :/ id use just a tool box but they waste to much space in the back. Was thinking maybe even keeping the soft top on and using the checker plate as like a shelf making the underneath like a lock box accessible by the rear tailgate.

[Fatzook]

Twappett90 wrote:

Was thinking maybe even keeping the soft top on and using the checker plate as like a shelf making the underneath like a lock box accessible by the rear tailgate.

Do this. A storage unit with draws will look heaps neater than a checkerplate abortion mounted to the back

[want33s]

Have you thought about incorporating the cargo barrier bit into the lid and having the lot slide rearward so you can access stuff underneath?... It would be a PITA to get to stuff in the tray if you had to unload everything stacked on top.

Assuming you are filling the tailgate.

[douglasgiersch]

want33s wrote:

Have you thought about incorporating the cargo barrier bit into the lid and having the lot slide rearward so you can access stuff underneath?... It would be a PITA to get to stuff in the tray if you had to unload everything stacked on top.

Assuming you are filling the tailgate.

I guess this was directed to me, Will be making the cargo barrier bit from a bit of 5 ply cut to shape and bolted/sealed then carpeted it, will maybe put a small hatch in it to chuck valuable in without opening up the back and put a lock on that and put a kill switch on the inside of the tub, try steal my suzuki now not sure if 1l are all the same but i have no handle on the outside of my tailgate and will have to lift the lid unless i rig up some wires ect from in the cab or something.

[want33s]

douglasgiersch wrote:

want33s wrote:

Have you thought about incorporating the cargo barrier bit into the lid and having the lot slide rearward so you can access stuff underneath?... It would be a PITA to get to stuff in the tray if you had to unload everything stacked on top.

Assuming you are filling the tailgate.

I guess this was directed to me, Will be making the cargo barrier bit from a bit of 5 ply cut to shape and bolted/sealed then carpeted it, will maybe put a small hatch in it to chuck valuable in without opening up the back and put a lock on that and put a kill switch on the inside of the tub, try steal my suzuki now not sure if 1l are all the same but i have no handle on the outside of my tailgate and will have to lift the lid unless i rig up some wires ect from in the cab or something.

Now the whole world knows ....

[douglasgiersch]

Its alright im gonna have two, one me mates know about and one knowone but me knows, have seen things like need the ashtray open of driver door open or in reverse, even pushing your cigarte lighter in, will work something sneaky out,

[Fatzook]

douglasgiersch wrote:

Its alright im gonna have two, one me mates know about and one knowone but me knows, have seen things like need the ashtray open of driver door open or in reverse, even pushing your cigarte lighter in, will work something sneaky out,

Don't lose sight of the fact you are driving a Sierra

[Gwagensteve]

I'd be steering well clear of plywood for a cargo barrier. I know it has been done, but it has to be really, really well sealed to prevent it falling apart, which is really, really hard when you have edges, screw holes etc.

Sierras leak water. Best to make everything out of stuff that doesn't absorb it.

Steve.

[tonyevans]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I'd be steering well clear of plywood for a cargo barrier. I know it has been done, but it has to be really, really well sealed to prevent it falling apart, which is really, really hard when you have edges, screw holes etc.

Sierras leak water. Best to make everything out of stuff that doesn't absorb it.

Steve.

Not if you use Marine Ply

[douglasgiersch]

^^was going to use marine ply hopefully the top won't leak as i will have a lip of angle before it clips rear hard cover bit, but can imagine the interior getting pretty wet regularly

[reeceh]

Wrap the ply in fiberglass? I'd not like to see what would happen if something hit the ply. Splinters right behind your head.

[tonyevans]

If you use 12mm Marine ply there is no need to fibreglass it and if something hits it hard enough to brake and splinter it no problem cause you will have already died from other injuries.

This ply has incredible impact strength and part of the standards for it is that the ply can be placed in BOILING water for 72hrs without parting.

[sideways]

Fatzook wrote:

douglasgiersch wrote:

Its alright im gonna have two, one me mates know about and one knowone but me knows, have seen things like need the ashtray open of driver door open or in reverse, even pushing your cigarte lighter in, will work something sneaky out,

Don't lose sight of the fact you are driving a Sierra

x2

The way I (or most others) would hot wire a Sierra by passes any kill switches, immobilizers ect. All you're doing preventing is someone taking off with your car when you've left the keys in it.

[Gwagensteve]

tonyevans wrote:

If you use 12mm Marine ply there is no need to fibreglass it and if something hits it hard enough to brake and splinter it no problem cause you will have already died from other injuries.

This ply has incredible impact strength and part of the standards for it is that the ply can be placed in BOILING water for 72hrs without parting.

Please don't think I'm being a shit, but I was told many years ago by a plywood supplier that there is effectively little difference between normal "exterior" plywood and marine ply. I'd always had this in the back of my mind when people discussed using marine ply (I prefer form ply, but anyways)

So this thread got me to do some research, and here's what I found:

Quote:

"Marine plywood is manufactured from durable face and core veneers, with few defects so it performs longer in humid and wet conditions and resists delaminating and fungal attack. Its construction is such that it can be used in environments where it is exposed to moisture for long periods. Each wood veneer will be from durable tropical hardwoods, have negligible core gap, limiting the chance of trapping water in the plywood and hence providing a solid and stable glue bond. It uses an exterior Water and Boil Proof (WBP) glue similar to most exterior plywoods."

Quote:

From Professor Gene Wengert, Sawing and Drying forum technical advisor
There are two adhesives, interior (which does not stand up to wetting) and exterior (which is not affected by long term wetting and would be called waterproof). Marine grade uses exterior adhesive, which is the same adhesive as used in the cheap CD-X plywood or any other exterior grade or "interior grade with exterior glue" plywood.
With marine grade, the lowest grade veneer is "B", which means that there will be no serious voids on the surface and interior plies. It is the voids that cause poor adhesion! So, marine grade will have good adhesion throughout the lamination. Also, marine grade can be cut without getting a void in one laminate on a freshly cut edge. The edges will be totally solid. The two species used for marine grade are Douglas fir and western larch, although I have seen keruing and other species used in a product called marine grade. You can get the same performance from panels such as exterior AC in most cases.

Marine grade has no natural decay resistance. It has no chemicals added to enhance decay resistance, unless it has been subsequently pressure treated (= $$$). Marine grade has no special waterproofing in or on the wood.

If you do not get the wood wet very often and if it is sealed, as you state, there is no difference in performance indeed by using a different, less expensive grade and species. Note that most interior grade panels do not use exterior adhesives. But if the plywood seldom gets wet, the interior adhesive will be just fine.

Which bears out what I was told years ago.

I do know that people have used ply successfully in these applications - Christover made a ute cab section out of ply years ago, I think that all things considered, I'd be using an inherently waterproof material like aluminium, Alucobond, or sheet metal, mostly because it's going to be less effort to ensure the finished product is durable. With ply you have to seal the ply and then seal the ply into the car. With a metal bulkhead, you only need to worry about sealing the bulkhead to the body - the material will look after itself. It's also more space efficient, and in the case of alucobond it will be lighter than marine ply.

Christover had a complex 3D shape to make, and ply made it easy to work into that shape and join, he could also see all surfaces and whilst it had to resist rain, it didn't have water sitting against it. Down at the bulkhead though, the shape isn't complex (it's a 2D shape) but it may well have water sitting against it, so it's not as good an application for ply. If you don't think it will see standing water, you haven't owned a sierra long enough. They all leak like sieve, quite apart from going through deep water/mud which will fill the car up anyway.

Steve

[tonyevans]

Having built a number of boats from 8 foot sailing dingies for kids to a 30foot fishing boat for commercial fishing on the great barrier reef I can tell you that without a doubt there is a huge difference between exterior ply and Marine Ply but everyone can have their own opinion - I just know which one I would go to sea in.

I just Re-read that prof's talk and he does not know what he is talking about - Exterior and Marine ply are NOT THE SAME. Sorry. The end

[Gwagensteve]

I'm not sure the prof claimed they were the same, in fact, I think he pointed out the differences succinctly and accurately in accordance with all the other research I have done.

My point is that there is nothing miraculous about marine ply. It can and will break down if not adequately sealed at the edges. The OP isn't making a boat, he's making a bulkhead.

In fact, further research has unearthed that almost all plywood now meets the 72 hour WBP test, so the difference is more related to the quality of the wood used for the ply. I don't think mahogany or other high grade, void free material is required for a bulkhead in a sierra, but sealing the edges and ensuring it doesn't trap moisture that might lead to corrosion of the steel tub etc is pretty important.

For the application, I'd use form ply as it has a waterproof skin on both sides that wouldn't require further sealing in this application, but I'd rather not use ply in that application at all for the reasons I have outlined, marine or not.

Steve.

[tonyevans]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I'm not sure the prof claimed they were the same, in fact, I think he pointed out the differences succinctly and accurately in accordance with all the other research I have done.

My point is that there is nothing miraculous about marine ply. It can and will break down if not adequately sealed at the edges. The OP isn't making a boat, he's making a bulkhead.

In fact, further research has unearthed that almost all plywood now meets the 72 hour WBP test, so the difference is more related to the quality of the wood used for the ply. I don't think mahogany or other high grade, void free material is required for a bulkhead in a sierra, but sealing the edges and ensuring it doesn't trap moisture that might lead to corrosion of the steel tub etc is pretty important.

For the application, I'd use form ply as it has a waterproof skin on both sides that wouldn't require further sealing in this application, but I'd rather not use ply in that application at all for the reasons I have outlined, marine or not.

Steve.

I have seen 40 year old Marine ply that has been unprotected and exposed to sea water that was still in fine condition I wish I could say the same for steel. I ,of course have NO Idea what I am talking about so have it anyway you like - I have used Marine ply in my Purple Peril rebuild and am confident it will be serviceable long after the rest of it is dead.

[douglasgiersch]

I am guessing this is the part you are calling the bulkhead steve. From what you are saying im a bit hesisitant about using ply, dont want to weld a wall in cause sheet metal work is a pain in the but, but i guess i dont see why i chouldnt do the same thing with the ply with 1.6/1.7 checkerplate alloy, just be a bit more of a pain to cut to the right shape, i have the checker plate just sitting there so it be cheaper than buying a whole sheet of ply for half a job,

[Gwagensteve]

Relax Tony - I never claimed you didn't know what you were talking about. If you are happy to use ply that's great - I even commented that I've seen ply work in this application, but I wouldn't use it for the reasons I outlined. I don't see a problem that we can disagree. My only issue is that everyone believes marine ply to have mythic properties of being armegeddon proof, and there are other grades of ply that are equally suitable for a non boat building application assuming you think ply is suitable in the first place.

Yes Doug, I'd use the checklerplate for that application. That's exactly what I did when I built one many years ago. I'd run an angle across the bottom and some SHS across the top to support it and make a cardboard template so you can get the fit right. I'm not crazy about checker plate but if you have it there its cheaper than buying something, regardless of material.

Steve.

[tonyevans]

Funnily enough Steve the first car I used ply on (The ply was 3 ply with a thin film of aluminium on one side) was a car called Chitty Chiity Bang Bang - I was an apprentice at Pinewood studios at the time and it is still around - Fly's too HeHeHe.