[monley]

GRPABT1 wrote:

joel wrote:

awesome torque curve

.

Really? Any old school deisel gives all and then nothing, I wouldn't call that awesome. I like the fact a zook motor gives more and more the more you punish it.

Does that not go for any petrol motor tho?

[Fatzook]

monley wrote:

GRPABT1 wrote:

joel wrote:

awesome torque curve

.

Really? Any old school deisel gives all and then nothing, I wouldn't call that awesome. I like the fact a zook motor gives more and more the more you punish it.

Does that not for any petrol motor tho?

Say that again in Engrish

[monley]

Fatzook wrote:

monley wrote:

GRPABT1 wrote:

joel wrote:

awesome torque curve

.

Really? Any old school deisel gives all and then nothing, I wouldn't call that awesome. I like the fact a zook motor gives more and more the more you punish it.

Does that not go for any petrol motor tho?

Say that again in Engrish

To many beers

[zookz]

This is why it would be cool!

"Engine fitted is a 1.7TD ISUZU Vauxhall astra engine, mated to a vauxhall carlton gearbox as they was all rear wheel drive, it was the 2.0 box and astra clutch + flywheel."

[joel]

GRPABT1 wrote:

joel wrote:

awesome torque curve

.

Really? Any old school deisel gives all and then nothing, I wouldn't call that awesome. I like the fact a zook motor gives more and more the more you punish it.

deisel produce useable torque at a lower rpm generally.

[ajsr]

for starters its spelt DIESEL, and IMO they would be next to useless in a zook as the rev range is not wide enough to make it practical.
besides all that torque would destroy the uber tough suzi drive train

[atari4x4]

but the best bit about a diesel would be "rolling coal" on poofta cyclists like the big gay trucks in the US do.

[joel]

ajsr wrote:

for starters its spelt DIESEL, and IMO they would be next to useless in a zook as the rev range is not wide enough to make it practical.
besides all that torque would destroy the uber tough suzi drive train

ew wow chek oute mista farcin kollege edukated boi

[stockman]

joel wrote:

ajsr wrote:

for starters its spelt DIESEL, and IMO they would be next to useless in a zook as the rev range is not wide enough to make it practical.
besides all that torque would destroy the uber tough suzi drive train

ew wow chek oute mista farcin kollege edukated boi

for starters it's spelt eh wow check out mister farking college educated boy

[joel]

stockman wrote:

joel wrote:

ajsr wrote:

for starters its spelt DIESEL, and IMO they would be next to useless in a zook as the rev range is not wide enough to make it practical.
besides all that torque would destroy the uber tough suzi drive train

ew wow chek oute mista farcin kollege edukated boi

for starters it's spelt eh wow check out mister farking college educated boy

chears dik hed

[GRPABT1]

monley wrote:

GRPABT1 wrote:

joel wrote:

awesome torque curve

.

Really? Any old school deisel gives all and then nothing, I wouldn't call that awesome. I like the fact a zook motor gives more and more the more you punish it.

Does that not go for any petrol motor tho?

Nope, not all petrol motors are designed to rev. I own a 550hp fully worked V8 and my factory GTi revs higher before it runs out of puff. The GTi actually doesn't even drop off at all before bouncing on the limiter.

Thing is they suit the light weight zooks. Just like rotary engines in RX7's, they suck once you put them in a heavy car. Same works the opposite way in this instance, a dIEsel works beautifully lugging around 2.5 tonne behemoths at tractor pace but it's a mis matched design when in a light weight car unless it's meant for pootling along on the highway with low RPM gearing to save every penny in fuel economy.

[GRPABT1]

And I'm not against diesel's either. The new BMW X5's tripple turbo 3.0L straight six diesel is a thing of beauty.

[ajsr]

stockman wrote:

joel wrote:

ajsr wrote:

for starters its spelt DIESEL, and IMO they would be next to useless in a zook as the rev range is not wide enough to make it practical.
besides all that torque would destroy the uber tough suzi drive train

ew wow chek oute mista farcin kollege edukated boi

for starters it's spelt eh wow check out mister farking college educated boy

well if we are going to debate its merrits you should at least be able to spell it

[joel]

^^ i always stuff this up, remember no i before e except after c? and desert and dessert.
also im semi retarded.

[Gwagensteve]

GRPABT1 wrote:

And I'm not against diesel's either. The new BMW X5's tripple turbo 3.0L straight six diesel is a thing of beauty.

I don't know how much experience you have with this particular motor, (I suspect not more than reading the specifications like the rest of us?) but I can comment that the version used in the current X3, 195Kw/560Nm is quite amazing. 6.0seconds to 100km/h in an 1875kg vehicle, and a EU combined fuel economy of 6.0l/100km.

However, these are mind bogglingly complex diesels, and I don't think they are anything like the diesels people think about in relation to off road performance.

A) They are massively electronically complex. You aren't wading one through a river crossing or dunking one in a bog hole.
B) They are completely software controlled - there are no user adjustments. They don't even have a dipstick. They have catalytic converters, evaporative emissions etcetc. They can be "chipped" but you're not wiring one into anything very easily. We're having enough trouble dealing with an M18 with an immobiliser, let alone VVT... these motors are a quantum leap beyond that stuff.
C) I would be VERY surprised if they offer better longevity than a comparable petrol motor. They are now being made so light, spin so fast, and are under so much boost (the 123D BMW 2.0 diesel runs 60PSI of boost and spins beyond 5000rpm) that I don't believe they are going to last any longer than a petrol motor, and that's fine with the way that vehicle use is going, but as a replacement/repower motor, I don't think they are relevant.

Comparing these modern, high tech diesels to a motor that produces the same torque and almost 50% less power than a G16B in a sierra pointless. I'm all for the right motor for the job, but I don't know what job an XUD9 or renault F18 engined sierra is for except avoiding European petrol fuel costs.

Steve.

I'll just ask again because I don't think anyone has answered it - exactly how is a diesel sierra, going to be better than a sierra with a G16B in it?

[jdk81]

You dont need a diesel for that.
With a little bit of work, you can drive a petrol sierra through water that deep too.

Install a snorkel
seal up the air intake system (put a one way or tap on the air box drain)
Plumb the diffs, gearbox, and transfer case breathers, charcoal canister, and dizzy breather up to the air box.
Ensure you fuel cap seals.
Consider installing water seperator fuel filter.

Spark ignition engine extras

Ensure the sealing surfaces on teh air box and dizzy will seal.
Use some dieletric grease on both ends of the spark plug leads to ensure they seal.
Thats as much as I remember doing.

Cubic assload cheaper and quicker than trying to fit a diesel engine.

Theres some ripper bogholes at lerderderg that kill cars, because they look like puddles.

[GRPABT1]

Gwagensteve wrote:

GRPABT1 wrote:

And I'm not against diesel's either. The new BMW X5's tripple turbo 3.0L straight six diesel is a thing of beauty.

I don't know how much experience you have with this particular motor, (I suspect not more than reading the specifications like the rest of us?) but I can comment that the version used in the current X3, 195Kw/560Nm is quite amazing. 6.0seconds to 100km/h in an 1875kg vehicle, and a EU combined fuel economy of 6.0l/100km.

However, these are mind bogglingly complex diesels, and I don't think they are anything like the diesels people think about in relation to off road performance.

A) They are massively electronically complex. You aren't wading one through a river crossing or dunking one in a bog hole.
B) They are completely software controlled - there are no user adjustments. They don't even have a dipstick. They have catalytic converters, evaporative emissions etcetc. They can be "chipped" but you're not wiring one into anything very easily. We're having enough trouble dealing with an M18 with an immobiliser, let alone VVT... these motors are a quantum leap beyond that stuff.
C) I would be VERY surprised if they offer better longevity than a comparable petrol motor. They are now being made so light, spin so fast, and are under so much boost (the 123D BMW 2.0 diesel runs 60PSI of boost and spins beyond 5000rpm) that I don't believe they are going to last any longer than a petrol motor, and that's fine with the way that vehicle use is going, but as a replacement/repower motor, I don't think they are relevant.

Comparing these modern, high tech diesels to a motor that produces the same torque and almost 50% less power than a G16B in a sierra pointless. I'm all for the right motor for the job, but I don't know what job an XUD9 or renault F18 engined sierra is for except avoiding European petrol fuel costs.

Steve.

I'll just ask again because I don't think anyone has answered it - exactly how is a diesel sierra, going to be better than a sierra with a G16B in it?

Pretty much my thoughts exactly Steve. The old school diesels are great because of their reliability but really only do suit heavy trucks, the new school diesels would be fun to have in a zook but really not a viable option for value for money or reliability. Your spot on with the "how is this better than a G16B" argument. Really, if you want to be wading around in muddy water up to your neck to justify a diesel in a zook then be my guest folks but it doesn't sound like my idea of fun.

[Gwagensteve]

Thing is GRPABT1, the #1 thing to die if you're doing deep mud and water is the alternator, followed by the starter. Anybody that's all caught up on the spark/efi of things is missing the point I think. Ignition breakdown is real, but far more people have to limp home with the charge light glowing or bump starting (or with water in the fuel) than with terminal ignition break down. IMHO my ignition and computer are high enough in my car that I have bigger problems than electrical issues if they are giving me trouble.

Steve.

PS I think the diesel thing is interestingly like the SPOA debate. I suspect that many of the people that want a diesel in a sierra want one for the spool/clatter/smoke, almost regardless of performance - kinda like wanting the lift of a SPOA regardless of how poorly the car performs once it's in, but nobody will really admit it, and they will WAY overstate the "advantages" to justify it. I really want a 6BT in my F250 and it's almost 100% for the spool/clatter smoke. It's only really going to be marginally better than the LPG 351C that's in there now, but I don't care - A mechanical pump turbodiesel is going to be spot on in a '75 highboy. Sadly though, I use don't think a Diesel is ever going to be 100% spot on in a Sierra.

[jdk81]

Gwagensteve wrote:

#1 thing to die if you're doing deep mud and water is the alternator, followed by the starter.

+ a lot
Completely forgot about those issues

My friend had a brand new startor motor die and needed to be pulled out and cleaned after the first bog hole.

My startor has had to be pulled out and cleaned too (worst part was it died on a different trip up in the snow).
I went through two alternators (the bearings clapped out from the mud), in the frequent trips to lerderderg.

[britvit]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I think it's important to recognise that these diesels weren't used because of their awesomeness compared to petrol. Diesel is taxed at a different rate to petrol in europe, so it's much, much cheaper to run a diesel car than a petrol car. In italy. for example, approximately 50% of new vehicle registrations were diesel through the period Santana were producing these.

Steve.

All fuel is much more expensive in Europe, diesel costs slightly more than unleaded, same as here. The reason diesels are so popular is fuel economy. The diesel mini does 90MPG!


UK Petrol Prices for Thursday 29th March 2012
Avg Min Max
Unleaded 141.31p 134.9p 150.9p
Diesel 147.38p 140.9p 157.9p
Super Unleaded 148.41p 137.9p 159.9p
Premium Diesel 155.64p 146.9p 164.9p
LPG 79.97p 73.9p 87.9p


Thats over $2 a litre A car with a 2litre engine is thought of as large in Europe.
The diesel vitaras are very popular in the UK.

[Gwagensteve]

Was that always the case in Europe though? I thought Diesel/petrol parity in pricing was fairly new in the UK.

Steve.

[britvit]

Diesel used to be about 10 pence cheaper than petrol. As here it's slowly crept up and overtaken unleaded. Small diesel vehicles have been very popular there for the last 20 or so years. Wages over there are in general a lot lower than here, so every little bit of economy helps. I was quite surprised when I arrived here and couldn't find a small used diesel vehicle.

[GRPABT1]

jdk81 wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:

#1 thing to die if you're doing deep mud and water is the alternator, followed by the starter.

+ a lot
Completely forgot about those issues

X alot more, wish I could forget about those issues. I've had my alternator out many a time for a thorough clean and contact cleaner birthday and last time was a full rebuild (pays to have an auto leccy mate). Starter motor has been replaced twice and removed and cleaned out a bunch of times too. Thankfully you can usually get home alright if travelling in a group with these problems. Like you said ignition is rarely a problem in a zook I think. I've had mine in water till the point it gets floaty a few times and water over the bonnect countless times and at worst I'd drop a cylinder but haven't since fitting new leads.

[2stroker]

Gwagensteve said "I'll just ask again because I don't think anyone has answered it - exactly how is a diesel sierra, going to be better than a sierra with a G16B in it?"

Only thing I can think is that maybe the diesel blocks wont crack... ha ha.

Dont worry about weight too much, people carry on about 4AGE conversions being too heavy and adversley affecting the handling, but it doesn't. Lots of people run winches, I think most 9000lb winches weigh between 40 to 50kg bolt that to a 30kg steel bullbar with a big set of spotties and hang that off the front of a 1300 Sierra (forward of the springs), that should make its handling terrible, but it dosn't. You just upgrade suspension to suit.

Would I want a Diesel conversion in a suzuki? not sure but I wouldn't mind having a drive to see how it goes. Remember that the theory is all good but you never really know till you give it a go, when I put an automatic transmission in my LJ in 1980's everyone was saying it was a stupid thing to do and asking why on earth would you want an auto in a suzuki or in any 4x4 for that matter.

[Gwagensteve]

True... true... but I'm not sure whether a cracked block is worse or better than a blown head gasket Seems that most of these small Diesels are fond of eating head gaskets....

Steve.

[squibby]

A 65bhp Diesel cruises better then a 85bhp Petrol and at almost double the economy. I know this much from my upbringing in soggy England where 17year olds have to learn to drive in loathsome little French 1200cc or the equivalent 1900cc version of the same model. the Diesel always packs a bigger punch.

However, it's like driving around with a tombstone tied to the front bumper, those old diesels are so dam heavy. Regarding the pertrol vs Diesel performance argument, no doubt in my mind you'll love the 1.9 Turbo diesel over any equivalent petrol up to about 1600cc. No doubt in my mind at all. But on the other hand don't be expecting a fire-breather.

If I was in europe still it's a complete no-brainer. I'd have the 1.5TD Jimny, or a diesel sierra if available.

technically i can offer no advice on how to do it though sorry

[Gwagensteve]

I understand your point of view, squibby, but I think you are being a bit loose with the numbers.

Yes, in general, a 65HP diesel will cruise better than an 85hp petrol, however, if the diesel has equivalent torque to the petrol I would suggest it would be much closer run thing. The assumption, I think, is that a lower HP diesel will offer higher torque than a larger petrol. That's generally true, and I think that's what you are referring to, however, that's not what we are comparing here. I think the most relevant comparison is between a XUD9 converted sierra (as the OP suggested for the conversion) and a G16B EFI converted sierra, where peak torque is near-as identical, but the diesel is giving up significant HP.

An XUD9 converted sierra would be significantly nicer to drive (gearing issues notwithstanding*) to a G13 sierra, no question. 20% more torque would be just enough to make the car feel flexible and cruise nicely. However, compared to a G16B, I think the gap would be in favour of the G16B. Let's imagine that the XUD9 offered 160Nm, and I'd be more than willing to look favourably on the XUD9, but it doesn't.

*now we get to gearing. Let's assume a road-legal sierra, so the largest engineerable tyre is 29". With the tallest possible gearing, rpm is 3200rpm @ 100km/h peak torque in the XUD9 is at 2500rpm, which is roughly where you'd want cruise RPM to be. I would think that by 3200rpm torque would be falling away a bit and throttle response would be "doughy." ( I used to own a diesel hilux that span 3K @ 100rpm and it was nasty when cruising) I can't see a way to drop cruise RPM to 2500rpm (or under 3K for that matter) without removing the sierra transfer case and swapping to, say, a Vitara case. (yuk) Sure, taller tyres would be a fix, but you'd need 33's to get the rpm right for cruising, and then gearing would be terrible off road - a diesel's off idle torque is nice, but it's no real substitute for numerical gearing.

Quote:

regarding the pertrol vs Diesel performance argument, no doubt in my mind you'll love the 1.9 Turbo diesel over any equivalent petrol up to about 1600cc. No doubt in my mind at all. But on the other hand don't be expecting a fire-breather.

I guess what you are saying here is that a XUD9 would be superior to a G13(carby or EFI) but It's not at all clear it would be superior to a G16B. I agree wholeheartedly. Doesn't seem to make any sense to swap one in rather than a G16B, when you take into account gearing availability and cost though, does it? that's even before you compare a manual XUD9 to a G16B with an AW-4 behind it.

PS I am more than aware that a diesel of seemingly low HP and even low torque can drive surprisingly well, better than the numbers would have you believe. There's a big difference between "drives surprisingly well" and "drives well" though. My Gwagen at 2500kg drives surprisinglywell considering it has 88hp and 180Nm. In all honesty though, it's a complete PITA to highway cruise in.

[Gwagensteve]

I hadn't watched this before and this, I think, 100% nails why people think they want a diesel - the whistle. No question that car sounds really, really cool, but watch the behaviour of the car and the engine note (rather than the whistle) and really it's just a small tyred sierra with too-tall gearing - it's not doing anything a G13A couldn't do. I was actually expecting a better demonstration of low RPM torque, and it's not evident at all in that video - there was as much riding the clutch as you'd expect with a small petrol that's incorrectly geared. It would be sooooo much better with an auto where you could left foot brake to bring the boost in and out irrespective of wheel speed.

I'm also a bit suspicious listening to that whistle - that turbo is spooling at VERY low rpm. This is normally a sign that the turbo will be out of flow well below peak RPM. This manifests itself as poor throttle response at high RPM, something I used to struggle with in a turbo'ed hilux I had years ago.

Steve.

[JrZook]

Gwagensteve wrote:

No question that car sounds really, really cool
Steve.

For real? Sounds like it has a flock of pigeons stuck in the muffler I'm actually surprised that the sound tickled your fancy.

[Fatzook]

JrZook wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:

No question that car sounds really, really cool
Steve.

For real? Sounds like it has a flock of pigeons stuck in the muffler I'm actually surprised that the sound tickled your fancy.

Same. That would be enough for me to sell the car. What a fucking lousy racket.