[SSSIERA]

was chatting to a bloke that my bro works with. he used to build racing sierras. and was telling me about running two transfer cases. as u can have standard gearing when onroad but the combinatios possible with the second case, mayd it great for rock crawling as low low 1st is like 7kmh at 4 grand (revs).

just though it was interesting he recond u can only do it with a few 4wds.
anyone know anything about em, have one set up.

it also allows u to have low range 2wd (like a twinstick)

cheers troy

[swifty_ano]

Want33's is gonna have an awesome set up

Correct me if I am wrong (which i probably am)....but I thought sierras transfer cases also included 2wd ratio (as in highway drive). Would 2 transfer case effect this??

[turbo_deo]

Kenns Lj will be running twin cases, vitara into sierra case

[Gwagensteve]

The normal configuration for this is a vitara transfer case with the front output cut off into a sierra case.

There was a point to doing this before transfer gears were readily available, cheap, and reliable. (I started setting up duals in the late 90's but abandoned it)

There is no point now unless you like making things for the sake of it. It's a tonne of work to get a whole lot of gear overlaps and not really that much reduction, unless you run reduction gears in one transfer, in which case you didn't need the other one.

Sierras are the easiest car to gear ever. There's no need to make it more complicated than necessary.

Steve.

[Ben_Sierra]

Just as an interesting point...

With 31s and 6.5s high range gearing is close to stock, and at 4000rpm in low first you'll be doing 6-7kph... Which is exactly what you say you want without the hassle of installing a second transfer case...

[SierraDan]

Impractical i know.
BUT for the sake of something.
Reduction gears in the vitara case and 6.5's the sierra case.
Would this be usable anywhere?

[Gwagensteve]

SierraDan wrote:

Impractical i know.
BUT for the sake of something.
Reduction gears in the vitara case and 6.5's the sierra case.
Would this be usable anywhere?

No. That's about 368:1 even with a manual and 3.7 diff gears.

I'm at 120:1 and very rarely need 1st low, even with my 660 - really only if I want to work off boost. On boost I'm in 2nd or 3rd low.


Also, the input torque at the sierra transfer goes from a peak of 365Nm (1.3) to 1800Nm assuming a 1.6 with 120Nm of torque. That's going to murder the transfer if you ever gain enough traction to load the car up.

Steve.

[SierraDan]

Yeah fair call.
Always thought about it but never hard enough.

[Gwagensteve]

Ben_Sierra wrote:

Just as an interesting point...

With 31s and 6.5s high range gearing is close to stock, and at 4000rpm in low first you'll be doing 6-7kph... Which is exactly what you say you want without the hassle of installing a second transfer case...

Bingo.

The advantage of dual cases is that you have a 1.95 low range and a 2.55 low range separately, which is OK I guess if you like driving in low range when you could be in high range. With an auto and short diff gears it's fair that the compound low is rarely needed.... in which case it's even easier to run stock diff gears and 4.1 or 4.9 transfer gears.

I spent some time driving a dual case car and it always just ended up with both cases in low, in which case it's a lot of effort for exactly the same outcome as a set of 4.9 transfer gears.

It doesn't matter how you crunch the numbers, duals are a poor return for the investment of time and money.

-They are a better solution for a hilux where A) there's plenty of driveshaft length, and B) the range boxes are removeable so all that's needed is an adapter rather than all the work required to cut down a case to end up with a vitara range box, and then adapt that to a sierra case.

Maybe the terrain somewhere means duals make sense. Doesn't seem to here.

Steve.

[SSSIERA]

this guy recond ud be doing tiptow speed at 4 grand. he also recond it depended on how u set em up. (unfortunatly i was occupide with other things at the time and wasnt realy listening.) but basicaly he was saying that if done the right way, the first trasnfer case can be used without 4wd so u have lowrange 1,2,3,4,5 (in 2wd), and a small reduction on standard gears (high high 2wd 1st 2nd 3rd 4th and 5th)

u then have
-high high 1,2,3,4,5 witch would be lower than normal high
-(4wd) high1,2,3,4,5
-(4wd) low 1,2,3,4,5
-high low 1,2,3,4,5
-low high 1,2,3,4,5 (witch will be a recduction on standard lowrange)
- then low low. 1,2,3,4,5

so u end up with
10 gears in 2wd
- 5 of which u use for normal driving
30 gears in 4wd (obviously a few double ups)

well thats what i could understand he was saying. defs gona try have a chat to him when he gets down in a few weeks.

dose this sound right to u steve i drew a diagram to try an work it out myself this arvo. there obviously a few different ways of doing it (each secraficing lower gears for eas of set up). would love to know how u had looked at doing it (in more depth if ya dont mind)


PS im more interested in it than anything else. would be cool as a show of peice. but the enormouse amout of stress on the second case would be a problem. but IMO twin cases front rear lockers would be the ultimate unstopable machine (unstopable till u blow the case that is) haha. aslong as ur not in a hurry it ud be able to drive it anywere

[JrZook]

SSSIERA wrote:

this guy recond ud be doing tiptow speed at 4 grand. he also recond it depended on how u set em up. (unfortunatly i was occupide with other things at the time and wasnt realy listening.) but basicaly he was saying that if done the right way, the first trasnfer case can be used without 4wd so u have lowrange 1,2,3,4,5 (in 2wd), and a small reduction on standard gears (high high 2wd 1st 2nd 3rd 4th and 5th)

u then have
-high high 1,2,3,4,5 witch would be lower than normal high
-(4wd) high1,2,3,4,5
-(4wd) low 1,2,3,4,5
-high low 1,2,3,4,5
-low high 1,2,3,4,5 (witch will be a recduction on standard lowrange)
- then low low. 1,2,3,4,5

so u end up with
10 gears in 2wd
- 5 of which u use for normal driving
30 gears in 4wd (obviously a few double ups)

well thats what i could understand he was saying. defs gona try have a chat to him when he gets down in a few weeks.

dose this sound right to u steve i drew a diagram to try an work it out myself this arvo. there obviously a few different ways of doing it (each secraficing lower gears for eas of set up). would love to know how u had looked at doing it (in more depth if ya dont mind)

That's all great and all but haven't you got the gist of the replys in this thread already??
Only a fraction of these gears will be really usable in real 4x4 terrains, you will never need those 30 gears....
The only possible advantage here may come from the fact that you have more than 2 reverse gear speeds.

[TryHard]

SSSIERA

Mate im not trying to be rude here .. but we seen photos of ur car and ur build thred u have Rasied some Valid Points but im really strugling to understand what ur trying to do with ur zook . some more info would be great .. most people wouldnt even both with twin transcase not even rock comp zookys they use 6.5s lower dif gears etc. . could u please explane to us what ur aiming for ..
have u finished ur lift ?

i run 6.5s twin lockers i can crawl up a tree quite easyly i really dont see the point of going much lower or playing with anything other then 6.5s depending on what u want

[SierraDan]

x2
Sometimes its a daily sometimes its a comp rig. Confuzzled.

[atari4x4]

another :popcorn: thread

[TryHard]

atari4x4 wrote:

another :popcorn: thread

[Teracis]

Yarr, it seems cool in theory, but I reckon unless you wanted some crazy lowrange for really really slow crawling, as well as a far higher lowrange for something else say sand or mud, and then a far higher again high range, you don't need it.

Try this http://www.grimmjeeper.com/metric_gears.html

and you can input all the different ratio's you want and check it out.

The idea would be that you had a stock transfer (or the highest ratio you ever would need) and a transfer with a far lower ratio, so that you could have. This won't work easily with sierra transfers because the high range isn't 1.0 though ideally you'd have

Stock High Range (both boxes in high)
Stock Low Range (reduction box in high and stock box in low)
Middle low range (mixture of high and low ranges with the stock box in high and reduction box in low)
Low low range (both boxes in low)

As stated, with a sierra transfer because it has high range reduction, instead of stock, you end up with all the high range stuff reduced a bit anyway.

[SSSIERA]

im not realy planning on doing this to my car. i was just interested in it. though some of u guys might have had some expirience with them (gwagensteve for example has) my car is gona be a daily. that i can play in. not a comp car.
i havent started my lift yet coz i have only just rounded up the required funds for the project. its my first car
only reason i was talking about it was because some one was telling me about having done it in a zook so i was interested and thought everyone else might be to (for those who hadnt though of it). i just wanted to know more about it thats all.
cheers troy

no ofence taken btw my zook is taking to long



EDIT: when u say high range reduction. do u mean that h4 has lower gearing than h2 ins sierras?

[Teracis]

Oh and the only other thing I can think it would be suitable for is if you ran different sized tyres and changed them often.

I.E. Monday to Friday you run 26's and on Saturday and Sunday you run 40's

If you're going that far though it's time to look at what you're doing, coz it'd be easier to just have two transfers or two zooks :p

[Teracis]

SSSIERA wrote:

im not realy planning on doing this to my car. i was just interested in it. though some of u guys might have had some expirience with them (gwagensteve for example has) my car is gona be a daily. that i can play in. not a comp car.
i havent started my lift yet coz i have only just rounded up the required funds for the project. its my first car
only reason i was talking about it was because some one was telling me about having done it in a zook so i was interested and thought everyone else might be to (for those who hadnt though of it). i just wanted to know more about it thats all.
cheers troy

no ofence taken btw my zook is taking to long



EDIT: when u say high range reduction. do u mean that h4 has lower gearing than h2 ins sierras?

Nope, but have a look at the gearing calculator.

IIRC Hilux boxes have a high range ratio of 1 and a low range ratio 2.77 or something.

Sierras have 1.41 for the high range and 2.88 for low.

Which means that if you have 2 sierra cases and use both in high range you get 1.41 x 1.41 = 2.07

Which is basically a reduction of 2

as opposed to the hilux's high range combined of 1 x 1 = 1 which is no reduction.

These are not the correct numbers but you can get them out of that calculator or off the net.
EDIT: Went and got the stock ratio's and redid the calculations to give you a better idea.
If you want to check it all out with that calculator, select the gearbox type, the first transfer type and then add in the underdrive values as the ratio's of the second transfer.

[joeblow]

should i?

[JrZook]

joeblow wrote:

should i?

YEP!

[Rusho]

JrZook wrote:

joeblow wrote:

should i?

YEP!

[joeblow]

Is doing a dual case impractical?.........no.


Is a dual case worth doing?...........yes.

Firstly i will try to ignore gwagons comments on his experience with dual cases...as far as I know it was one vehicle that did not run diff gears (i know....i know.....still makes him an expert....). Have I dealt with more than one way of gearing in a vehicle?.....yes.

Why did I go dual cases and why do I still pursue it? Because I got sick of trying to fix other forms of gearing.......and sick of hearing complaints about noise etc and other dramas being run in to.

I wanted stock Suzuki gears.....just a greater selection of them . Let me say that yes the systems I do are not as low as say a t/case running 6.5's.......bit I don't need gearing that low, and in fact I struggle to use low low with my current setup. What I do have is the choice between running various low's and the smooth running of O.E gears. And before the gman gets on and states that the t/case gears alone are 100% reliable and quiet.....well.....there are many who know this not to be true. I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just stating there ARE other ways of doing things. Shit....I'd make a lot of money being able to set t/case gears up right.....but I don't need the money and I don't want the headaches when it all turns nasty.

Do they work well in SWB vehicles?.....shit yes. The sytems have come a long way....as Kenns' LJ is testament.....still has a longer rear shaft than a TJ Jeep!

Buying the dual case allready cut etc is quite easy, all you have to do is make some mounts but that will be easier with the new bolt in stuff i'm bringing out soon. Just t/case gears alone will also need some modding of the mounting system for reliability.


Forgot to mention......




Just my 2cents......

[SSSIERA]

so your bringing out a kit are u joeblow.... any idears on price yet.


oh and by the way i dont have an opinion on em, thats what this thread was for. so i can learn about em.
cheers
troy

[Gwagensteve]

Yes the car I drove ran diff gears, but if you spent 5 minutes to ask me.... oh - that's a different thread.

Every set of transfer gears in the club is quiet and smooth, and install takes a few hours to gear, say, a 33" tyre on and off road.. but if you spent the time to talk to your fellow club members... oh, that's a different thread too...

In comparison to a set of dropped in transfer gears and HD mounts:

Both diffs
Jackshaft
Rear and front driveshafts
custom mounts
an extra shifter cutout
Welded Vit case...

For the same total reduction and the same highway RPM, so you can split ranges which you still have to stop to do, so it's no easier than swapping between high and low.

As I said, when transfer gears were noisy and broke often this was maybe worth considering.

It's not anymore. Duals are for people for with lots of time and fab ability to play around with, for whom anything they built is better idea than anything that can be bought.

I'd be very interested in the total cost if you don't have all that stuff laying around - paying for getting driveshafts reworked etc. IMHO it's quite a lot more than the investment in transfer gears.

I agree that diff ratios generally part of a bigger build - which levels out the cost a little, but that's when tyre size exceeds 33" IMHO, at which point the gearing possible with duals (and no transfer gears) starts getting a bit marginal.

Steve.

[Teracis]

I know this is a bit of a grave dig, but what kind of lengths are we talking about having to move the standard sierra transfer?
I've borrowed a vit box and transfer to measure up, I'd really like it to not require movement of the standard transfer but I can't see that happening.

If anyone is wondering, it's just a bit of an idea that I thought could add some flexibility to a rig. I've done the gearing calculations and while I'm already running 6.5's, as everyone seems to think they aren't suitable for sand and mud e.t.c., I thought the addition of a range between current high and low as well as a double low (which isn't really super necessary) may be something cool to add.

I don't plan to start another war, or reignite the old one, but maybe you lads who have been there and done it before may have some tips/tricks that will make it a possibility?

EDIT: After finding some info about Fatzook putting a vit box in a sierra and having to move that shifter forward just to get it in the same position as a sierra shifter I don't think this will even come close to fitting!
I figured that it wouldn't work even close to easily by the fact that there's not many around :p

[Lockie666]

[got_bar_work]

I would love to put a Sierra case behind a vit case with gears
With 4.2 in my vit case I find I want a bit lower for steep steps but I would like a stock low for fast trails so I can do around 60 with out reving it's tits off
Also so I can run 5.12 diffs to take load off the tail shafts

[got_bar_work]

There is heaps of room between a Sierra case and gear box
U should be close to be able to fit one in with out a jack shaft
Just a splined shaft
Then some way of mounting them together not divorced any more

[tanshi]

check out joe blows dual transfers.

i have a very similar build in my LJ