[The Saint of Killers]

Latest update for anyone that wants to build a G13BA (without FI)
I have selected

G13B (GTI) crank and girdles (as suggested by Fordem)
Standard G13BA Rods (New)
Hyper Flatop G13BA pistons (will confirm if oversized on when block is measured)
Compression raised to 10:00
Ported Intake
Port Matched Exhaust
New Valve Assembly
All Machine work
Oil Pump (Standard) New
Water Pump (Standard) New

EST: $2200 - The biggest expenses are the machine work and head-work by far.

That is not including labour for removal of engine, or rebuild/reassembly.

[The Saint of Killers]

Now to update how things will likely progress.

I will be purchasing the MY-side 1 Kit and Doug Thorley Headers/Exhaust.
I will do a review once these are done and post the results on the forum.

The suggestion I've had from the engine builders and mechanic is to get the vehicle running with these mods before doing the engine work. (I also am unsure what camshaft to select)
The motor (I believe) to be healthy so I am organizing a compression test just to be sure.
...It's a hard thing for me to do, I'm an all in kind of guy.

[Gwagensteve]

Again, it’s your money but I’d avoid rebuilding an otherwise healthy engine. Throw the carbs and cam at it and run it until compression drops or something breaks.

G motors aren’t that fond of being apart.

I know some disagree with me about this but I’ve seen too many motors fail quickly after a rebuild.

[vet 180]

The Saint of Killers wrote:

Latest update for anyone that wants to build a G13BA (without FI)
I have selected

G13B (GTI) crank and girdles (as suggested by Fordem)
Standard G13BA Rods (New)
Hyper Flatop G13BA pistons (will confirm if oversized on when block is measured)
Compression raised to 10:00
Ported Intake
Port Matched Exhaust
New Valve Assembly
All Machine work
Oil Pump (Standard) New
Water Pump (Standard) New

EST: $2200 - The biggest expenses are the machine work and head-work by far.

That is not including labour for removal of engine, or rebuild/reassembly.

See this is where I firmly believe if you are going to build a G13 your much better off building a G13bb. Because with your proposed build you are spending 2.2k and are still stuck with a crap head. If you are going to think of FI then the GTI motor is also better. If your happy to swap in the GTI crank why not the head also...so why not just run a G13bb? All those mods mentioned in your build so far claw some strength back to a stock G13bb, but still add very little in power over a stock G13ba.

In saying that a part of me is curious to see if the headwork and cam you end up choosing work well together and if you gain something or step backwards in power


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[vet 180]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Again, it’s your money but I’d avoid rebuilding an otherwise healthy engine. Throw the carbs and cam at it and run it until compression drops or something breaks.

G motors aren’t that fond of being apart.

I know some disagree with me about this but I’ve seen too many motors fail quickly after a rebuild.

I have heard you mention this a few times. How many of the rebuilds that you have seen are rebuilt from getting warm? It sounds as if they have got warm, block and head have lost their hardness, because it’s a cheap engine with cheap parts no one has done a hardness test and just gone ahead and build inside a soft core


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gwagensteve]

Not necessarily. Generally it’s been rings.

What temperature is required to permanently soften an aluminium engine block? Annealing temperature for aluminium is ~600C afaik

[MrRocky]

Dont forget to factor in a decent set of headers. If your planning on going for max power then you would want tuned length pipes with a 4 into 1 collector and no smaller than 2" mandrel bends for an exhaust.
Some might argue 4-2-1 headers would give more low down torque but with your other mods and tyre size id stay 4-1
Also consider a similar weight flywheel to gti if its gti power your aiming for, once again if it was offroad performance with larger tyres i wouldnt touch it but your specs seem more geared toward road performance.
Id also consider a pair of 4.1 ratio diffs

[vet 180]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Not necessarily. Generally it’s been rings.

What temperature is required to permanently soften an aluminium engine block? Annealing temperature for aluminium is ~600C afaik

Will depend on the block design. There was a CA engine back in the day we were going to build as it over heated. Check the hardness. Block was fine, but head was toast. Needed to get a new head for the build.

Interesting that it was mostly rings.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gwagensteve]

Surely the variable will be material, not block design.

My research indicates a reduction in surface hardness (annealing) in aluminium requires a minimum of 410C, held for between 30minutes to 3 hours.

[The Saint of Killers]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Again, it’s your money but I’d avoid rebuilding an otherwise healthy engine. Throw the carbs and cam at it and run it until compression drops or something breaks.

I agree with you, it's no longer a priority to build a completely forged motor without forced induction, the engine builders ruled it out too.
To those that are reading, there are no G13BA forged rods available on the market, they have to be cast for around $900.
For this reason there is no point forging the rods for a N/A build and I'd go as far to say, no point in forged rods in FI either (under 10psi) - Suzuki veterans feel free to dispute me on this.

The engine builders are quite confident they can get some decent flow with the 8V head (for an 8V head that is ). Around $900 for the machine work and new valve assembly.
I may not be able to postpone the head work as the recommendation by the cam manufacturer is to replace the rockers and springs.
A statement most likely made to insure them from breakage complaints, that being said, I'd do it anyway.

Pistons and crank are more for the reliability rather than a large gain in hp (albeit there should be a gain), there is simply more to be gained in the head & cam selection with port matching.

[MrRocky]

Dont get indian rockers make sure you get genuine, not genuine maruti. Ive ordered a few and they have been garbage

[The Saint of Killers]

vet 180 wrote:

In saying that a part of me is curious to see if the headwork and cam you end up choosing work well together and if you gain something or step backwards in power

It's just like throwing money at strippers! No matter how much you spend, you're going home with a poor result and an empty wallet. ....but people do it anyway


For the fun of the exercise and just off the cuff (I'm not asking for impunity from scrutiny, just some leeway) let's compare results.
To do so we must factor in some conditions;

a.CODE (X) = Common motor transplant inc all required components - No engine performance modifications/not rebuilt - (as these factors cost more) -
b.CODE (G)= G13BA performance modified and rebuilt -best engine condition (new) but understanding we are comparing a modified vs standard ((X) has the capacity to gain performance increases in future ((for extra cost))
c.Equal amounts of Labour vs DIY are applied
d.Carb setup is "close enough" to EFI in performance - side draft is well reviewed here

What are the possible results for investment vs performance?

1) G costs less or equal to X and produces superior performance - BEST (and most unlikely)
2) G costs more than X and produces superior performance - GOOD (if spend 1%- 10% over) AVG (if spend 11% - 30%) BAD (Spend above 30% - as this money could be spent on performance mods for motor X)
3) G costs less or equal to X and produces similar performance
4) G costs more than X and produces similar performance - VARIABLE - how much higher is the spend?
5) G costs less or equal than X and produces an inferior performance - VARIABLE - how inferior is it? how much less was it?
6) G costs more than X and produces inferior performance - VARIABLE how inferior is it, how much more was it? but without question the WORST result

I think we can safely say that many will assume I land in 5 or 6
Considering I looked at prices for a G16 EFI and G13B (Gti) swap, I think I'll land in 3 but when you factor in the conditions (new motor) that's inherently a good result in my opinion.

[vet 180]

The Saint of Killers wrote:

vet 180 wrote:

In saying that a part of me is curious to see if the headwork and cam you end up choosing work well together and if you gain something or step backwards in power

It's just like throwing money at strippers! No matter how much you spend, you're going home with a poor result and an empty wallet. ....but people do it anyway


For the fun of the exercise and just off the cuff (I'm not asking for impunity from scrutiny, just some leeway) let's compare results.
To do so we must factor in some conditions;

a.CODE (X) = Common motor transplant inc all required components - No engine performance modifications/not rebuilt - (as these factors cost more) -
b.CODE (G)= G13BA performance modified and rebuilt -best engine condition (new) but understanding we are comparing a modified vs standard ((X) has the capacity to gain performance increases in future ((for extra cost))
c.Equal amounts of Labour vs DIY are applied
d.Carb setup is "close enough" to EFI in performance - side draft is well reviewed here

What are the possible results for investment vs performance?

1) G costs less or equal to X and produces superior performance - BEST (and most unlikely)
2) G costs more than X and produces superior performance - GOOD (if spend 1%- 10% over) AVG (if spend 11% - 30%) BAD (Spend above 30% - as this money could be spent on performance mods for motor X)
3) G costs less or equal to X and produces similar performance
4) G costs more than X and produces similar performance - VARIABLE - how much higher is the spend?
5) G costs less or equal than X and produces an inferior performance - VARIABLE - how inferior is it? how much less was it?
6) G costs more than X and produces inferior performance - VARIABLE how inferior is it, how much more was it? but without question the WORST result

I think we can safely say that many will assume I land in 5 or 6
Considering I looked at prices for a G16 EFI and G13B (Gti) swap, I think I'll land in 3 but when you factor in the conditions (new motor) that's inherently a good result in my opinion.

Your going to be landing in 6 every time when comparing to a G13bb or G16 build


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MrRocky]

2k for decent g13bb/g16b motor
1k in new/conversion parts gives you 3k and silky smooth cold starts.
Its easy to compare a built g13ba swift and say it went well but put that in a shoebox shaped sierra and you would barely notice the difference over stock

[The Saint of Killers]

vet 180 wrote:

Your going to be landing in 6 every time when comparing to a G13bb or G16 build

Hahaha told you

What's the cost of a G16 EFI and G13BB engine transplant, outsourced, drive in, drive out?
What's the cost DIY? - Remembering that DIY is different for everyone.

I've seen the recommended costs on this very forum and they look to be greater on both accounts? Some were astronomical!

Remembering not everyone can source and store a half-cut and I'm certain a great percentage of people would need to outsource the electrical.
It's certainly the case for me.

[The Saint of Killers]

MrRocky wrote:

2k for decent g13bb/g16b motor
1k in new/conversion parts gives you 3k and silky smooth cold starts.
Its easy to compare a built g13ba swift and say it went well but put that in a shoebox shaped sierra and you would barely notice the difference over stock

I disagree with your estimate. It certainly wasn't mine.
There's also the situational considerations. Do I have the time and work-space to solve out the inherent gremlins associated with DIY engine transplant.
Not really in my case no.

You might argue there are Gremlins building a motor. Based on experience I say nowhere near as many.
Machining costs are the highest cost for the engine and it's still nothing like porting out a 302 for an extra 10hp, everything else is quite reasonable.

[Gwagensteve]

Mr Rocky's numbers are sound for DIY. $3K is very realistic. If you don't have time or space to sort gremlins you don't have the time or space to sort gremlins. It doesn't matter what induction system the car has.How many G motor EFI conversions have you done?

The wiring isn't hard. I've sucessfully done EFI wiring without a diagram (although it helps) , and the run on all angles/run on any fuel/effortless cold and hot starts and ON BOARD DIAGNOSTICS would make the EFI motor more attractive even if it made less power, which it won't. My G16B vitara runs happily on fuel so stale it won't run my lawnmower.

People get so suspicious of EFI and think it's some sort of voodoo - nothing could be further from the truth. The trolley tug (G16B Baleno) started driving like poo on a trip many years ago. Threw a code. Threw the switch to put it into diagnostic mode, told us MAP sensor error. opened bonnet and plugged the hose back into the map sensor. Got back on our way. Id have more time for carbies if they had diagnostics and people didn't just scratch their head and say "needs a rebuild" when their carby car plays up, if we're talking about gremlins.

Not to mention, the EFI motor already has a superior crank, and a G16B has more head flow than even a GTi DOHC head, and vastly superior ignition. (coil pack)

You need the 1/2 cut for a day. it takes no time at all to strip what's required from a 1/2 cut.

There's shared costs between what you're proposing and en EFI swap too: Exhaust and air filter/airbox/clutch. People often ignore them as part of the conversion cost but you have to deal with them either way.

I get a bit confused about an "engine build"- it often looks to me like lots of money gets spent because it can. Take head porting and port matching. Of course it seems like the obvious thing to do, but aren't you looking to build torque? big ports do not improve torque. On a 100hp motor, the power "lost" to port matching wouldn't be measurable on a dyno. I don't understand building an engine for maximum flow and then putting a "torquer" cam in it - all the cam will be going is trying to fight the reduced gas velocity at low rpm (caused by increased port volume) which will actually hurt torque. Consider too that carby engines require turbulent port flow to keep the fuel in suspension when the engine is cold. Again, a bigger issue at low gas velocity when your aiming for torque. HP is easy, torque is hard.

When you put a G16B/G13BB in you know exactly what you're going to get - it will do exactly what is says on the box. XX KW, XXNm. Your plan has no such guarantee. Most of the cost in the EFI onversion is parts for fitting - fuel system/exhaust/clutch/conversion kit. because that's mostly a remove and refit exercise, its not wasted if the GXX motor you've bought is in poor condition or you have problem with it - buy a replacement motor and bolt it in, you're back to XXkw and XXNm. You planned build puts most of the investment into machining and specialist labour. If the result doesn't meet expectations, that money is lost.

There's some mythology going on with here, partially due to the legacy of old motors like the A series which were infinitely tuneable, but also because we're talking about a motor with little aftermarket/tuning support, and partially because of the belief that the aftermarket can do anything.

Almost any motor can be made to make more N/A HP if you're willing to narrow and raise the power band. As discussed, these things are unhelpful in a 4WD.
It's quite hard to add torque to a N/A motor.
Suzuki owners are tight and nobody dyno's their car or engine so all gains are subjective.
All modified motors make more noise because nobody puts a quiet exhaust on a modified engine. Noise = power, every time.
Almost everything you'll read about some hektik modification was about adding power (if not just noise) which takes us back to the first point.

The biggest advocate of carb G motor performance (isn't on here any more) used to bang on relentlessly about how powerful is car was. Similar setup to what you're planning but with a G16 base. He only ever drives sand, only ever by himself, and has never seen a G16B converted sierra by way of comparison - that's often the kind of subjectivity we have to deal with when people talk about how awesome their carb setups are.

[The Saint of Killers]

All great points Steve and I am at a loss to argue against them, not that I'd want to anyhow. The whole premise of this thread since it's inception has been that I recognize the tried and true method but if I was to build a G13BA what will give me the best chances of success.

I'm not frightened of EFI, I love that sh**!
I also love carbs, not because they're better, just because they go "sstttthhhhhhhhhhhuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuukkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk"


I was fortunate to find a comparison video for the MY-Side Kit vs standard carb and the uploader had the good sense to replicate the testing conditions (location, temp, wind, etc).
He filmed the speedo side by side and and offered (what I would consider) an objective comparison. Quite a rarity in the car scene.
In my opinion his information was reliable as evidenced by his presentation, commitment to detail and removal of bias (he was adding a turbo later so the success of the carb was rendered somewhat irrelevant)

The review suggested noticeable improved throttle response, faster acceleration in gears 1 -3 (as evidenced in the video) Comparable (but still improved) acceleration from 4th gear up to 55mph.
Before I take this as gospel, maybe this was due to emissions controls in the stock carb being removed but to counter that point, I don't think it's a stretch of imagination that jets matched to a carby designed for acceleration would improve that very thing!

You're correct, The car scene is riddled with ridiculous biases, "please don't tell me I wasted my money, it's faster because I say it's faster!"

I will do my best to create fair comparisons and put them into a dedicated build thread.
I hope I can maintain credibility by accepting the risk of ending up with an expensive rebuild that sounds good but performs as standard.

Your comment about noise reminds me of when I was young and added a K&N filter to a 1987 Honda Integra (the early models with the black rubber spoiler).
It was a pod with the stock intake duct ramming air straight into the centre of the filter.
Now I am not exaggerating when I say this, under hard acceleration I have never heard such an engine noise transformation from a pod filter.
Suddenly the motor sounded throaty, deep and much, much louder. Almost like a race car.
The reality was that acceleration (while sounding much more aggressive) was absolutely identical

[vet 180]

The Saint of Killers wrote:

The whole premise of this thread since it's inception has been that I recognize the tried and true method

Honesty the tried and true method is a G16 swap


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MrRocky]

Americans love cars that drive like poo
Take a look at what they consider good suspension
Spoa and shackle reversal kits in real world applications make the car worse and overcomplicated. Consider that before taking there tech as gospel on engines.
As for g16b wiring, this tells u exactly how to do it.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=55914
I have done a few g16b swaps over 2 days for 1k in labour with parts and engine supplied including new seals ect..

[The Saint of Killers]

This is outright conjecture!
You just lumped 300+ million people into one category.

Also, thank-you for the link.

[Gwagensteve]

Mr Rocky speaks truth. Americans in general seem to think appallingly bad suzuki builds are “good”. It’s like they think they are better the worse they are.

[The Saint of Killers]

vet 180 wrote:

The Saint of Killers wrote:

The whole premise of this thread since it's inception has been that I recognize the tried and true method

Honesty the tried and true method is a G16 swap

I know! hahaha
I've not once disputed this fact.

You cut off the rest of my quote though, I mean, come on, do you work for channel 7 or something?

[alien]

alien wrote:

If you're this much of a sucker for punishment do something like the 1.0 Ford EcoBoost hahaha

Just leaving this here again

[Gwagensteve]

Wasn't someone in QLD doing this, as in, it was almost complete?

[The Saint of Killers]

alien wrote:

alien wrote:

If you're this much of a sucker for punishment do something like the 1.0 Ford EcoBoost hahaha

Just leaving this here again

hahahaha

Me: "Hey members, I want to build a G13BA rather than an engine swap for the for the fun of it?"

Forum:

[Gwagensteve]

That’s a statement though- “I’m going to XXX” - in that case, proceed.

If you ask for advice, you’ll get it. As you currently are. You expressed concern in your first post that maintaining the “charm” of the 8v/carb will cost you power and the frustration of carbs.

Three pages later and that’s still the outcome. We can keep telling you that and you can keep coming up with “positive reviews” and 15 year old tech from the US but surely by now you can recognise that there are no advocates for putting big money into a G13BA here.

I fear nothing we say will have any influence on your path, you’ll build a motor, which will be more complex and expensive than any EFI swap, you’ll end up with a doggy outcome unsuited to the application, and you won’t have dyno figures to support the work you did, and none of us will have learned anything.

[The Saint of Killers]

I mean... well.. my comment was made in jest

I think it's unfair to say we've learned nothing and will learn nothing.
From the outset I've explained I'm backing the wrong horse.

Can we agree there are some unknowns?

I would love for someone who has experience with the Torquer Cam and Myside to make comment, but alas there is no-one so I've thus become the mule.
It would help me further for yourself and perhaps another engine builder to expand further on how port matching will hinder the performance of the motor.
And on that point, if the clear consensus is, "do not port your head or you will hinder much needed performance due to XYZ as tested in XYZ" then you need to trust that I will not proceed with that modification.

Can we agree on this point Steve?
A G13BA with extractors, exhaust and a good carb will perform better than a standard G13BA?

[The Saint of Killers]

I also agree that I will not be placing the car on a dyno (unless I can get an outstanding rate for it).
I certainly won't do it mod for mod (as would be the best way to know what the heckin heck is going on)

I can however think-up some testing conditions which may be of interest to some people and report the comparisons.

[The Saint of Killers]

Ahhh screw it all!!!

Hayabusa conversion!

Used to have a Busa... they've got torque