[sjs]

I am looking at purchasing my first ever 4wd. This car will be a 2nd car in the family and will only be used for weekends / holidays (if I don't change job). It'll probably be 80% highway driving and 20% off road driving (beach / camping / off road fun). I don't have money to buy Prado or the like and don't want an extremely old diesel / live axel big 4wd so I've narrowed down to either Jimny Sierra or Grand Vitara.

I've been reading about Jimny Sierra and Grand Vitara for a few months now and I am now leaning towards a brand new Grand Vitara Sport with automatic transmission. I would like to modify the GV in the following order.

--- Right after purchase ---
Under body protections
2" Old Man Emu lift
AT or LT tries (not sure on the size yet)
Towbar / Roof bar

--- Down the track if I decide to do some serious stuff ---
Bull bar (potentially will fit a winch but not now)
Snorkel
Locker (either ARB AirLocker or ELocker), also not sure if locker is needed since the TC
Diff breather
Heat sink for the diff and auto transmission
Dual battery system

Please don't swear if I sound like newbie because I am. :_) My hesitation at the moment is that I can't find any available parts from either ARB or OME website. There is no OME 2" lift kids for GV. There isn't ARB Locker for GV since 2006, I believe that's when Traction Control became available on GV. There's no bull bar available from ARB just yet. Also it seems that GV is lacking in genuine factory parts as well. Some forum users commented (from my googling) that they had to write off their not so damaged GV due to lack of available parts etc. Also I am not sure how good the 4 independent suspension are for off roading. Some forum readings suggest the ground clearance will be much lower once loaded, also on down hills.

There seems to be enough parts available for Jimny Sierra (not for 2012 model onwards though). And Jimny Sierra being live axle for both the front / rear is probably better for extreme off road but I probably would rather have a slightly larger vehicle with a larger engine (maybe I don't know anything), as well as higher towing capcity and high way safety. And I don't think auto transmission will go well with the little 1.3 litre engine.

Anyway just would like to get some more thoughts from existing GV owners and where they got their lift kids, bull bar etc etc.

Thanks.

[Built4thrashing]

My choice would be the GV. Anything after 2008 will have traction control as standard but be careful as some are only 2wd.

You wont need lockers if you have TC (Traction Control) especially in the auto with what you will use it for.
Compared to the Jimny they are a lot more comfortable to drive and the 2.4l is an awesome motor.

Bullbars are available as are lift kits and bash plates ARB don't offer enough parts for them but other companies have heaps.

I'm a bit Biased as I have a GV or 2

[christover1]

I don't think you would find a Jimny big enough for a family.
Jimny will be better off road.
GV be much better on road, and touring.
We have some newer type GV's in our club,
they perform quite well off road, with the mods you plan.

[Gwagensteve]

I don't think there is an OME lift at all for the current GV, and experience has proven that about 35mm is the maximum feasible lift before bushing problems are encountered.

I'd strongly recommend underbody armour for a current GV.

Correct, there are currently no aftermarket diff locks for the GV AFAIK.

I'm torn on the traction control. It does work, but I don't like how much wheelspin is required for it to start to function. It tends to result in excessive speed and lurchy, scrabbly progress which makes it hard to be confident in the car. I love automatic gearboxes off road, they are clearly superior to a manual transmission off road, BUT (and it's a big but) the correct technique for driving an automatic offroad is to left foot brake the car to control torque and speed, an this automatically cancels the traction control. This is really, really, annoying.

Personally, if you are considering suspension lift and a locking differential, I would consider buying the best old model GV you can find. This model is better supported by the aftermarket and more responsive to modifications in my opinion. It's also much cheaper. and much cheaper to maintain, so you will have more budget for modifications.

Just my 2C.

I wouldn't consider the Jimny Sierra if you have a family. It's too cramped.

[sjs]

Thanks for the reply.

Built4thrashing wrote:

but be careful as some are only 2wd.

did you mean Jimny Sierra? I know that Jimny is 2wd only and 4wd needs to be activated by the switch and not recommended for tarmac because lack of CENTRE differential hence damaging the gears in centre axle. But I think GV (at least current model) is full time 4 wheel drive. On suzuki.com.au it mentions "full time 4-mode" for GV though I am not 100% sure what it actually means.

Built4thrashing wrote:

especially in the auto with what you will use it for.

What do you mean by above quoted sentence? Why would TC work better in auto? Also I believe though lockers and TC can co exist but I might be wrong.

[sjs]

Thanks for the reply.

christover1 wrote:

I don't think you would find a Jimny big enough for a family.

That's why I said I am leaning towards GV.

christover1 wrote:

Jimny will be better off road.

everyone seems to agree but how much better off would Jimny be compared to GV?

[sjs]

Gwagensteve wrote:

and experience has proven that about 35mm is the maximum feasible lift before bushing problems are encountered.

would 35mm be enough though with load? and what's preventing more lifting? money? technical (no after market parts)? law? if money how much are we talking about here (generally speaking)?

Gwagensteve wrote:

I'm torn on the traction control. It does work, but I don't like how much wheelspin is required for it to start to function. It tends to result in excessive speed and lurchy, scrabbly progress which makes it hard to be confident in the car.

also at the cost of disc brakes.

Gwagensteve wrote:

an this automatically cancels the traction control. This is really, really, annoying.

first I am a manual driver but I've done extensive googling on 4wd auto vs manual and most people tends to suggest auto will require a LOT less foot work and better focus on actual driving etc etc that's why I decided to give auto a try. I hate auto most other time. But I do love CVT!!! Anyway. why did you say "this automatically cancels the TC"? wouldn't stepping on the brake mimicking the effects of TC except TC would brake on individual wheels where brake will brake on all 4 wheels? or is it because TC only works when accelerating not braking? and when braking only ESP and ABS shall work?

also does GV comes with LSD (either rear or front or both)??? if it does then at least when TC is cancelled out LSD would kick in anyway (maybe I don't know anything)?

Gwagensteve wrote:

I would consider buying the best old model GV you can find.

I did consider an older GV but given GV isn't as popular (compared to say, corolla) hence not many are available as second hand and 2nd tends to have a lot of milage on them (which is a good thing I guess, meaning reliable) so I decided probably better to just get a brand new / or used 2013 model (demo).

Gwagensteve wrote:

I wouldn't consider the Jimny Sierra if you have a family. It's too cramped.

100% agree at least in my case.

[sjs]

In terms of lift kit what other brands are there? From my reading / googling OME seems to be the most reputable brand out there. Would anyone be able to list some popular brands in the order of good - bad or well known to not well known or expensive to least expensive? Thanks.

[sjs]

One thing I haven't decided though is whether to get petrol or diesel. The diesel model seems to suffer some issues especially with the particle filter. Still researching no decision yet.

[Built4thrashing]

No Auto option in the Deisel models.

The rear bush on the front arms are the main reason for the limited lift. Any more than 35mm and the bush tends to destroy itself when used offroad.

As for lift most suspension companies are starting to make lift kits for the NGV. I have a 40mm IronMan lift in the wifes 08 GV. Its awesome on the road but a tad stiff offroad.
Dobinson, Tough dog, EFS, Boss are a few that jump to mind. Dobinson seem to be a popular choice.

The problem I have found with ours being a manual is with lift and larger tyres you need to ride the clutch if in tricky slow situations as the TC will stall the engine. The Auto will slip to compensate for this.


I also have a 2000 GV. Its a V6 Manual and I bought it with 167,00kms on it. You can find them with lower Ks on them but you will pay a premium for them and in the bush the older models are far superior when fitted with a locker. Even tho they are not a real popular 4wd there is plenty of gear available for them and a lot of Vitara parts will fit also. I have a Sierra LockRight in the front of mine and have also had one in the rear but removed it (wife had to drive it on a Tassie Holiday) Do a search of the members rigs section and you will see there are lots you can do to the older GVs and the new ones also...


New GV's

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=42374

Mine viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5679&hilit=built4thrashing

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=42253


Older GV's

Mine... viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17450&p=744136&hilit=built4thrashing#p744136

Shabz... viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6234

Klutched.. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=32683

Chopped... viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23904

And there are heaps more..

[Gwagensteve]

B4T has pretty much covered it. Lift really has little to do with load capacity - most lift springs have a higher rate than the factory coils, so as the car is loaded it will sit higher relatively than a car with stock springs.

What I'm saying is that if the standard car drops, say, 20mm with your load, it will drop maybe 10mm with lift springs, so the end result is the lifted car will sit 45mm higher than a stock car, once laden equally. (I hope that makes sense)

In any case, you don't have a choice for more than 35mm of lift (reliably) unless you intend spending thousands and fabricating custom parts.

left foot braking applies the same brake load to all wheels regardless of the traction they have, so it doesn't proportion torque. It can help, but it's nowhere near as effective as traction control. The reason to left foot brake an auto isn't to add traction, it's to control the speed and torque at the wheels accurately.

Traction control is just the ABS system running "backwards" and can't function once the brakes are applied, as once you touch the brakes the system reverts to ABS mode and looks for lockup rather than overspeed. I hope that makes sense.

No, there is no LSD for the NGV. There is no reason to use a mechanical LSD along with traction control - one makes the other redundant, (with the exception of high performance road cars)

The diesel engine seems to have some reliability issues, but more importantly, it looks to be a complete dog to drive offroad, due to the manual gearbox. It desperately needs an automatic, which apparently Renault (who supply the engine, from memory) won't permit. I like diesels, but I don't think I'd recommend one.

I'd still say it seems like your money would be better spent on an old model GV. It looks like your offroad intentions might make it more sensible to start with the older model.

Steve.

[atari4x4]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I'd still say it seems like your money would be better spent on an old model GV. It looks like your offroad intentions might make it more sensible to start with the older model.

Steve.

i reckon something like this is the ultimate compromise between old & new. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23904

cheap enough to be able to buy a tidy late model one & have money left over to built it into a capable tough tourer, throw a pair of air lockers in & it would be cutting edge deadly. plus you don't have to worry about using & abusing a brand new car off road & reducing the resale value.

[Gwagensteve]

Spot on I'd reckon. Depreciation and maintenance costs will be pretty steep on a NGV.

Steve.

[Built4thrashing]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Spot on I'd reckon. Depreciation and maintenance costs will be pretty steep on a NGV.

Steve.

Ask Steve125 about repair costs......Just had to replace a front diff pinion seal..... was not cheap.

[atari4x4]

Built4thrashing wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:

Spot on I'd reckon. Depreciation and maintenance costs will be pretty steep on a NGV.

Steve.

Ask Steve125 about repair costs......Just had to replace a front diff pinion seal..... was not cheap.

don't forget about zooks4life's broken CV on his diesel NGV, $800 from suzuki & none in australia & a 6 week wait.

[Built4thrashing]

That's crazy.....

could get an aftermarket one from Ebay in a few days but that may void warranty

[zooks4life]

Petrol ones are different to diesel ones.

[Built4thrashing]

zooks4life wrote:

Petrol ones are different to diesel ones.

Whats different about them?

[zooks4life]

Don't know to be honest. I asked my mechanic about the ones on eBay, and he said that's where he normally gets them from but there all petrol ones and won't fit. He's also a family friend.

[sjs]

Built4thrashing wrote:

No Auto option in the Deisel models.

then no need for me to decide which is great!

Built4thrashing wrote:

I have a 40mm IronMan lift in the wifes 08 GV.

any signs of damage since you have higher than 35mm lift?

Built4thrashing wrote:

http://www.auszookers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=42374

wow!!! best stuff I've seen on the internet for a while!!!

[sjs]

Gwagensteve wrote:

as once you touch the brakes the system reverts to ABS mode and looks for lockup rather than overspeed. I hope that makes sense.

so I can still use hand brake to manually brake the rear wheels to aid traction I guess? no?

Gwagensteve wrote:

I'd still say it seems like your money would be better spent on an old model GV. It looks like your offroad intentions might make it more sensible to start with the older model.

true but mentally I am still keen on a newer model. I did however do a brief carsales search and found that 08 models onwards, there's 2.7L petrol as well as 3.2L petrol??? also the MY13 auto is 4 speed where the older ones were auto with 5 speed??? what??? am I missing something?

[sjs]

atari4x4 wrote:

i reckon something like this is the ultimate compromise between old & new. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23904

don't know why but I somehow extremely dislike the shape of 2nd gen grand vitara, I think it's 2000 onwards until 2008. it's sooooo ugly.

[sjs]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Spot on I'd reckon. Depreciation and maintenance costs will be pretty steep on a NGV.

true!!! I think I will probably be looking at 08 or later models. which is likely to be between 10k - 15k for under 100k km, which is 50% cheaper than brand new.

does the NGV engine have timing belt? or is it chain driven?

[atari4x4]

sjs wrote:

atari4x4 wrote:

i reckon something like this is the ultimate compromise between old & new. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23904

don't know why but I somehow extremely dislike the shape of 2nd gen grand vitara, I think it's 2000 onwards until 2008. it's sooooo ugly.

yeah it's a bit of an ugly jelly bean.

the later ones with the updated grill & updated interior are nice + they're not a softroader like the NGV with it's IRS & lack of realistic options for diff locks, decent lift kits, the ability to easily regear them for larger tyres etc etc.

[shep]

I have a 2010 2.4 auto GV and a 2013 jimny sierra. My family fits in the jimny fine (mrs + 2 kids) however there is no room left once all the assorted baby arse stuff is in the car. The GV has plenty of room, previous family car was a troop carrier so we aren't used to packing light, however it is more a dirt road touring car then a off roader. The GV can be made to go most places if careful with wheel placement however no matter how careful you are the underneath gets damaged.

[Marko_SJ]

Gwagensteve wrote:

The diesel engine seems to have some reliability issues, but more importantly, it looks to be a complete dog to drive offroad, due to the manual gearbox. It desperately needs an automatic, which apparently Renault (who supply the engine, from memory) won't permit. I like diesels, but I don't think I'd recommend one.

I'd like to put my two cents in as my uncle has had one or two diesel GVs as work govt. cars. He is really a fan of them, and I know it is all anecdotal but no problems with those particular cars. They are at least as capable as IFS utes (which isn't very), from what I have seen, although not a lot of scope to improve. For going shooting and putting in boats it is hardly a dog, so its all relative I guess.

Gwagensteve wrote:

I'd still say it seems like your money would be better spent on an old model GV. It looks like your offroad intentions might make it more sensible to start with the older model.

Steve.

Still agree on this point however.

sjs wrote:

atari4x4 wrote:

i reckon something like this is the ultimate compromise between old & new. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23904

don't know why but I somehow extremely dislike the shape of 2nd gen grand vitara, I think it's 2000 onwards until 2008. it's sooooo ugly.

I don't find them particularly appealing either aesthetically but do you really buy a 4x4 for the looks? By all accounts they are a great car.
If it really pains you that much, buy a NGV and wreck it or buy an older v6 vitara.

[tanshi]

and there are no lockers for the NGV are there?

[atari4x4]

i think piranha offroad do one for the rear... something like $2k+ & they need your car for a few weeks

[sjs]

The_Amateur wrote:

I don't find them particularly appealing either aesthetically but do you really buy a 4x4 for the looks? By all accounts they are a great car. If it really pains you that much, buy a NGV and wreck it or buy an older v6 vitara.

In my original post I mentioned this will be the 2nd "car" in the family initially will be used for a weekend trips however if I change job which is highly likely then this car will become a daily commute as well hence I am less keen on the jimny hence I prefer a modern car at the cost of less capable off roadability. However as many have said I guess the ideal situation would be to have both the jimny and NGV but realistically that's not possible. Maybe I am just trying to put myself into a corner who knows :_)

[sjs]

atari4x4 wrote:

i think piranha offroad do one for the rear... something like $2k+ & they need your car for a few weeks

but I am from NSW. :_)