[ball]

I can see problems getting a durable seal with both options you suggested. Can you take a pic looking at the inlet end.

I may have an idea

[JrZook]

Cover the cap and pump with 1-1/8" fuel hose to seal? I'll grab a pic tonight of what she loos like from the inlet end. Just for the record the is NOT the HP side of the pump. It'll be suction/gravity fed etc.

[ball]

Are you looking for a permanent solution or a temporary one

[JrZook]

Permanent! What have you got in mind?

[JrZook]

This is what the inlet side looks like.

[ball]

Will draw something up after I have a feed

[monty]

there are alot of fuel pump shapes and sizes as you probably well know, i remember the late model toyota mr2 being very small and still fed a 2 litre turbo engine easily it would be pretty cheap too. Also some of these internal pumps are required to be imersed in fuel to keep them cool and to aifd service life. If its hard to mount due to it not going all the way down to pick up fuel you could put a hose on the inlet with the filter sock on the end. sorry i just like your project its awesome. im a mechanic and i love this shit.

[JrZook]

Cheers for the comments mate!

When trying to run an engine with a very small fuel consumption the actual flow rate of the pump does poses an issue as does it's current consumption due to the low power changing system the bike has. The actual physical size of the pump is also an issue as there will not be too much room to mount this thing also. You wouldn't happen to know the flow rate and current consumption of the MR2 pump? I'm guessing it's a 38mm diameter body.

I managed to wire up the pump and give it a test. Was pretty happy with its measly current draw. Only ~0.5A with a non-restricted output and ~1A pumping fuel at the max of 70psi. Tested it under both states with only the intake portion of the pump body immersed in fuel for ~5min and the pump body temp seemed to hold constant at ~40C which seems promising. The fuel flow must have been enough to keep it cool.

I will also be attempting to run the pump off a PWM driver in which the duty cycle with be varied in accordance to engine fuel demand. This will be advantageous as I should see a nice drop in the current draw in which the pump will run cooler and it will also mean that the tank fuel will stay cooler upon constant recirculation.

Hopefully be able to pick up my manifold from Mr Fat this weekend and I guess if I'm really keen I could bodgey rig everything up and be able to have a quick test run next week which would deffo do wonders to keep the motivation up with this project

Dan

[monty]

Not off the top of my head sorry. But i imagine it would be similar drawAs to size i would be guessing but i remember pulling it out and being shocked at how it fed a high powered turbo engine. Depending on how your fuel pressure is regulated and what pressures your wanting to achieve i would imagine you would only need pretty low pressure and volume from your pump so maybe if ya sample a few from your local parts mob you might find a pint size one that suits you.What fuel pressure are you going for? because the size of the engine and how many injectors you have shouldn't require much of either.Also whats your fuel return system like does it run from a regulator? If the pump gets its signal from the pwm driver i can see how draw would be an issue perhaps some sort of solid state relay setup might help. I remeber setting up a few pumps for some race engines and they pretty much run constantly but on other vehicle [standard] i think they got a signal from the crank angle sensor somehow but would also self prime before start up. What about a fuel pump from an efi bike theres alot out there these days in wreckers. When you start it up please video it !

[JrZook]

Well this pump is actually out of a CBR125 injected bike fuel pump assembly. At this stage I will be running a return line like system with the vacuum operated mechanical regulator off the R6 fuel rail. Fuel rail pressure will be 3bar (42.5psi) as this is what the injectors are spec'd at.

As stated previously this bike's charging system has very little lee-way especially at the lower RPMs, hence reducing the pump current draw by any amount via controlling it by PWM rather than having it powered 100% all the time will deffo help with these issues.

Eventually I would like to end up with a returnless fuel system with an electronic fuel pressure sensor and control the pressure directly from the ECU by altering the pump PWM duty cycle.

[JrZook]

Manifold all glued together thanks to Mr Fatzook!




Come up pretty good considering how small and fiddly the thing was. Will look even better with a splash of paint!
Next on the list is to sort out a fuel rail setup and mounting system

[Fatzook]

Not bad considering there are 11 different pieces of metal in there

[twitchy]

JrZook wrote:

Teracis wrote:

Nice, this sounds like an interesting project, got any pics of the bike as it stands now?

Well this is when I just got it on the road:



and the baby snail for it



Currently sits 3inch lower front and rear then in those pics.

Specs:

'94 yamaha virago XV250
Air/oil cooled 250cc, 60 degree odd fire v-twin
26mm single carb
21Hp stock!
16.8sec 1/4 mile (my best so far)

Aiming for 30Hp-ish with EFI
40-50 with EFI turbo
looking for 13-14sec 1/4mile times

Dan

You will be closer to those times with the turbo.... My TL1000 is good for mid 11s & you are about 90hp shy of that.....lol.

Are you going to mod the cosmetics like maybe bobber style??? Has lots of potential from the looks of it ( looks good now, but you could make it Killer!)
Like most others I wish I understood electrickery stuff better, Father in Laws an Electronics engineer but he's a wanker so I have to outsource anything I need.
will be keeping an eye on this one.

[JrZook]

Cheers mate!

Another benefit is that this bike only weighs ~135kg but it looks wayyy heavier than what it actually is! Then with my added bulk on it the total weight will be pretty much spot on 200kg! So with 50HP she will have nearly the same power to weight as my boat! Could be fun!

It was a super quick rebuild just to get the bike up and running as I had no transport at the time so once I do get the EFI up and running the bike will be stripped and started again. Mods will include moving the engine as far forward and left as possible to place more weight over the front end. Would like to remove some castor angle outta the frame so it turns in nicer. Front forks chopped so I can lower my handle bars ~4inch. Dual front disks and make up a custom rear disk setup. Get a nice dint free tank and get it black nickle coated.

I want the thing to have an old skool look about it but still have it handling decently with the added power.
Will be interesting at least!

[ball]

Bits in progress



Boring job this one

[JrZook]

Bits!!! Woooooooooo!!!

I can send up some pistons next time if ya wanna have a crack at lightening then. Would be less boring

[twitchy]

Yo Jr Zook, if you want it set up to handle better I can some & show you the best way at some point if you like... Faster steering is good but to much & it will be really nervous & bite you on the arse if your not careful.

[JrZook]

Cheers twitchy! May have to take you up on that offer when I get closer to that stage of the build.

Next part of the project: Rip carby out and test to see if my EFI TB and intake actually fits!! Guess what! My rum influenced measurements were pretty darn spot on! EFI gear fits exactly where the stock carb would go! Win!!

Tank off:


Tank on right side:


Tank on left side:


Fuel reg positioning


The trial fit has now given me some ideas on how much space I have for the rest of the fuel rail setup. I'm thinking of mounting the fuel reg on the RH side above the injector, joining the two injector cups via hardline under the manifold and having the fuel inlet above the injector on the LH side. Run hardlines along the frame to under the battery box where there will be enough space to mount the fuel pump and mount the ECU behind the battery box or on the rear guard under the seat. Well that's the plan anyways.

Dan

[JrZook]

While I had the carb and intake off to test fit the EFI TB and intake I decided to take a few side by side comparison pics.


Top view with slides held open. Dirty old carb setup on the left.


Manifold side you can really see how much bigger the 38mm TB is to the stock 26mm carb!


This is how I went with the height of my TB and intake manifold compared to the stock items. The EFI stuff is about ~7mm higher so at the moment its a pretty tight fit into the frame. I guess I could shave a few mm off the top of the TB as well as the intake stub to gain more clearance. Not too bad for an electronics person me thinks!

Picked up a tube bender and 2 meters of 8mm (5/16) bundy tube to make up some fuel hard-lines that will run along the frame and under the tank from the EFI pump to injectors. Just waiting on a few 8mm elbows so I can braze the fuel rail together along with the mounting tabs to hold the injectors and injector cups into place.

Other than that I'm currently setting up a dodgy injector test rig so I can flow test the array of injectors I have already. This rig will also be used to characterise the injectors in terms of their dead time vs battery voltage so my fuelling algorithms become more precise. As I'm using rather large injectors for this project slight errors in their characteristics will result in significant tuning issues at low engine loads and speeds.

Dan

[JrZook]

Well this weekends efforts resulted in a nice dodgy injector testing rig. All the components are present so I can characterize the flow rates and opening time of my injectors. I will whip up a program for my old ECU which should hopefully be able to run the injectors for these testing purposes. Just waiting on my glass measuring cylinder to arrive this coming week.


Testing rig. Powered by a jump starting battery, fuel pump is submerged in a juice jar of fuel. Injector in bucket to check pattern.


Spray pattern from a Denso 4-hole disc type injector out of a Suzuki baleno. With the 2 distinct fuel streams coming out of it you can tell that it is suited to a 4 valve head in which it will hit the back of both intake valves. This will result in a bit of wall wetting on the virago 2 valve head but it will still work.

Dan

[JrZook]

Ended up making a more elaborate injector flow tester setup to characterise the injectors I have. Wrote some code up in my first ECU attempt to control the injection frequency, pulsewidth and number of pulses so dynamic flow testing is possible. Characterising the injectors using this method compared to a static 100% on will give info about the injector opening or dead time. This refers to the time the injector takes to open and start delivering fuel linearly. Quite an important characteristic for EFI fuelling calculations.


I added in a fuel pressure gauge (really an oil pressure gauge) to keep an eye to see if the pressure stayed constant. The R6 pressure reg seems to hold the fuel pressure spot on at 40psi.


Used a 250ml glass measure cylinder to measure the amount of fuel dependence and figure out the flow-rate of the injector. I'll need to get another cylinder with better resolution as this one only has 2ml graduations. Good enough for now to get a rough measurement of the flow rates.

Here's a short demo of it in action using a 4-hole Denso injector running at 4000RPM with a 12ms pulsewidth for 700 cycles.


This test gave roughly 214cc/min flowrate and a dead time of ~0.8ms @ 12.5V. The tiny fuel pump flowrate was measured via the return line flow with injectors off at a line pressure of 40psi. The pump flowed ~100ml in 54sec which is equivalent to ~6.7L/hr. Fingers crossed it has enough flow! Apparently this pump is also found in some 400 and 700cc quads so it should be ok!

[Rhinoman]

Have you got a current probe on the injector? you should be able to do some proper characterisation of the injector impedances now you have that set up.

[JrZook]

Hey mate! Haven't got a current probe but I guess I could put in a low value high power sense resistor in series and measure the voltage across it for current profiling?

[JrZook]

Managed to work out what I'm gonna do for a fuel rail setup. Now just need to braze it all up!


Leftside and right side fuel rails with regulator


Mounted on engine. Fuel inlet it on the right and return out of the reg on the left.


5/16" rubber EFI hose joins the rails under the manifold.

Everything just seems to fit!

[JrZook]

All brazed up now!

Just gotta figure out a way to mount the rails to the intake and that's the fuel system pretty much done! No to start getting this new PCB sorted and start writing some firmware.

[Rhinoman]

Looking good

[4wheeljive]

How far off is it form starting with the injectors in place ??

[ball]

Sneak peek at what's in the mail tomorrow

Ignore the bits that are a bit ugly though

[JrZook]

I see no ugly, Ball! Looks bloody sweet as to me! Thanks a heap mate!

4wheeljive wrote:

How far off is it form starting with the injectors in place ??

Hey mate! I've still gotta make a few steel brackets to hold the fuel rails onto the injectors then that part will be completed. With that in place it has all the basic EFI hardware to run. Would just have to rig up a dodgy fuel supply/pump external to the bike but my ECU is still a while away. Once I get the pump cap from ball and make up the hardlines for the bike and mount the fuel pump I'll really get cracking on the electronic/software side of things to control it all.

Progress is slow but its still moving in the right direction

[ball]

JrZook wrote:

I see no ugly,

the benefit of selective photography