[atari4x4]

Symon wrote:

Hey guys, nice little forum you have here.

I was doing a bit of research and stumbled across this thread - I am the author of the post on myswag.org that atari4x4 linked to.

The response from that little thread has been somewhat overwhelming and I am quite pleased to see that you got some benefit from it. The thread is very much a work in progress so if you have any topics that you would like to be explained (I don't profess to be a guru on everything though, so keep that in mind!) please post up or shoot me an email or PM, and I will amend the thread on myswag.

Cheers!

Thanks Symon for the awesome write up, hope you didn't mind me linking back to here?

[Symon]

Cheers mate, I do appreciate the feedback.

No I don't mind the link at all, in fact you linked it the way I prefer you to. I did up the thread for the myswag members so the content will always stay there along with any updates.

If you copied the content instead you would have missed out on the updates.

[Teracis]

Looks like you're a decent sparky then.

You mention in your thread about the crimper that comes with those cheap lug kits being useless.

It's pretty useless as a crimper but I find they are still a valuable tool if ONLY for the THREAD CUTTER.
Back when I was an apprentice I was working with one of the tradies and we had to cut down some M5 stainless bolts. I was about to get the grinder and he goes here watch this, POP and it was the right length (you screw them in) and a bloody perfect cut which screws straight into a nut.

I know it can be done with a grinder (I still do it because I forgot to put my one of these back in the ute and it's at home) but it's a LOT harder and more time consuming.

That said, I've only done it with the small sized stainless bolts but I still reckon it's handy.

[tmb99]

Thanks guys, I had to do some soldering on the weekend and for the first time ever it came out looking as it should! I used the standard and a T join methods shown.

[atari4x4]

wicked, it's amazing how easy it is once you've got the right techniques.

where are the pics?

[tmb99]

too late now under duct tape, corrugated plastic and zip tied up under the body.

[MacDaddy]

Good Stuff !

Well i just learnt something new in this thread !

[Symon]

atari4x4 wrote:

wicked, it's amazing how easy it is once you've got the right techniques.

where are the pics?

This is one from Matto on the myswag forum, he did a pretty awesome job of his dual battery installation, the rest of the thread is here - http://myswag.org/forum/index.php?topic=4749.0

And the more detailed thread here - http://pcoa.org.au/forum/viewtopic.php? ... &sk=t&sd=a

[atari4x4]

Thanks for that link Symon, nice use of the available space!!!!

[shakes]

Mostly on topic... My soldering iron isn't working as it should. It's heating the wire and if the solder goes on molten it draws it through, but wont draw the solder through when you try feed it on as you should. Most of the tip is black and only the parts that aren't are the parts that the solder won't just fall off it. (hope that makes some sense I'm useless with words so it's pretty hard to describe sorry)

I vaguely remember something from soft soldering gutters at trade school about needing to flux/bronze the tip for it to work properly but cannot remember the specifics and can't get the right tag to put into google for help.

any insights?

Cheers

Simon

[royce]

get it hot, file the tip shiny and smother it in solder tilll its all tinned

helps that when you use it you wipe it on a wet sponge while its still on to get it clean again

[shakes]

cool thanks, will try that.

[tmb99]

symon wrote:

Now for the Golden Rules of Soldering -

Rule No. 1 - Keep your tip clean
Rule No. 2 - See rule No. 1

I thought I just had a shit soldering iron (it was the cheapest at dicksmith) and that was the reason for my pathetic attempts. After reading this I sanded the tip clean, that combined with the other info it now works great!!
Sorry for the shitty ph pic but here is my latest efforts.

[Symon]

shakes wrote:

I vaguely remember something from soft soldering gutters at trade school about needing to flux/bronze the tip for it to work properly but cannot remember the specifics and can't get the right tag to put into google for help.

The advice royce gave you was bang on the money. The tip should always be nice and shiny, if there are black bits on it (which is burnt on flux) then you don't get a good heat transfer from the iron to the joint. Also electrical solder is resin cored, which means the flux is already in the middle of the solder, so you don't need to add additional flux like you do with plumbing.

atari4x4 wrote:

Thanks for that link Symon, nice use of the available space!!!!

And to think an 'expert' at one of the automotive places laughed at him and told him it was a stupid idea.

http://myswag.org/forum/index.php?topic=3972.0

He did a lot of pre-planning for the job as well, he is a lot more thorough that I would have been!

http://myswag.org/forum/index.php?topic=3750.0

[Moph]

My tip ... if you don't have one of these, get one!

http://www.kincrome.com.au/web/catalogu ... mber=K4001

Absolutely friggin' awesome. AutoOne have them on sale for $30 at the moment.

[Poita]

Haven't had a chance to read the guys whole thread but I do soldering everyday (electronics is my job and I am qualified to military/medical spec soldering) and I noticed a couple comments here that could potentially cause some damage!

Firstly NEVER NEVER NEVER file your soldering iron tip. It only has a VERY thin coating on it and once that is removed the tip is useless. The coating is measured in microns on modern good quality tips!
There are only 2 ways you should ever clean the soldering iron tip.
1 - A slightly damp sponge (shouldn't drip if squeezed) and gently rub the tip on it to removed the rubbish. Too wet drops the heat in the tip rapidly and over time this damages the tip.
2 - Brass wool designed for cleaning tips. Better than the sponge in that a very thin coating of solder is left on the tip protecting it from oxidation. My preferred and personally used method.

You can also buy a tip cleaning paste if you need something strong, but probably cheaper in many cases to buy a new tip. Every 6 or so solder joints (or when the tip starts looking a little dirty) just wipe it gently on the sponge/brass wool till it looks shiny.

350 degC is all you need for most work (PCBs, car audio cables etc). Any more then that and you can melt the glue holding the pad to the PCB and ruin whatever you are working on. 60/40 solder starts melting at 190 degC.
Higher temps can be used when soldering large cables etc, but a higher wattage iron and bigger tip is a much better solution.

You don't need flux if using solder, it has flux in it. Flux is useful though if you are reworking a previously soldered connection, but you don't need much of it.

Probably the most important thing is the correct sized tip. If the tip is too small, you can have a huge iron and you still will not be able to transfer the required heat. Thermal mass is critical.

Cheers,
Pete

[86slowsierra]

How do you work out fuses?
after years of dodgy wiring its occurred to me i havent got any in my upgrades.
is a matter of working out the amp draw and putting in a fuse just larger than that?

[royce]

Fuse is easy, make it so it will blow before the wire catches fire

[Rusho]

royce wrote:

Fuse is easy, make it so it will blow before the wire catches fire

So 20 A wire = 15 A fuse, correct?

[Poita]

If the device on the end has it's own use then you just need one a little lower than the cable rating.

If the device on the end doesn't, then you would need a smaller one to protect that.

[86slowsierra]

royce wrote:

Fuse is easy, make it so it will blow before the wire catches fire

(how long have you been a omnipotent being?)

so thats what shep was trying to figure out.

and hypothetically if you have no idea what any of the wire is rated to?
Does the size generally relate to its rating?

wouldn't you need 2 for like a spot light loom ? one for the power wire and then one for the wire after the relay?

also how then do you figure out the relay rating?



I just dont want my shit heap to burn b4 i get a chance to buy a super cool loom

[royce]

Rusho wrote:

royce wrote:

Fuse is easy, make it so it will blow before the wire catches fire

So 20 A wire = 15 A fuse, correct?

Define 20a wire

All cable has current carrying capabilities relating to how much it will cope with before it gets too hot and melts the insulation, its a lot easier to find on quality cable though

Unless you are a real numpty and use way too small a cable for what you are powering then usually use something a bit bigger than the most load youll see, IE 2x60w headlight globes = say 10 amps so 15 would be ok but 20 better if youve used say 1.84mm2 cable that is JASO D609 rated to 22amp

You only ever need 1 fuse right at the supply for something like lights, its unlikely youll see a scenario where you have a single short that over capacity of the single wire

Exception is something like a amp or aux power setup where you might run a fat cable to the rear of the car with a big fuse on the battery then you split out to smaller cables in the rear, youd stick another fuse at that junction to protect the smaller cable

[Moph]

royce wrote:

Exception is something like a amp or aux power setup where you might run a fat cable to the rear of the car with a big fuse on the battery then you split out to smaller cables in the rear, youd stick another fuse at that junction to protect the smaller cable

For spotties etc that's where Jaycar's fused relays are an awesome bit of kit. You can run a nice fat (fused) cable to a splitter block, then a short length of cable to the relay, and each relay is then fused at the start of that circuit. Nice tidy solution.



http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.as ... rm=KEYWORD

[Reubs]

86slowsierra wrote:

How do you work out fuses?
after years of dodgy wiring its occurred to me i havent got any in my upgrades.
is a matter of working out the amp draw and putting in a fuse just larger than that?

A bit of a read - but I think this will clear up some inconsistencies...

Fuses 'generally' exist only to protect wiring. They 'generally' don't protect downstream devices from failure - therefore they are sized to the cable - not the load.

The rating of a fuse is it's 'continuous' rating. e.g. a 10A fuses will handle a 10A rating all day long every day. If you have only a 10A load, no need for a 15A or 20A fuses. Fuses are designed to have a predictable 'tripping curve'. e.g. (I don't have any figures for blade fuses so an example) something along the lines of a 10A fuse may not ever trip at 14A. It may trip in an hour at 16A, 5 minutes at 20A, 1 second at 40A and 0.01 second at 100A (short circuit).

Fuses must be rated higher than the rating of any cable further down the circuit to protect the cable. I have always found the ratings of cable advertised at places like Supercheap and Repco a little bit 'optimistic'. Narva rate it's 1.85mm^2 auto cable at 15A.

IMO a de-rating of about 0.8 is a good idea for 2 reasons -1) 12A would be more realistic - it may be wrapped in a loom in the engine bay at 50 deg. c. & -2) voltage drop wouldn't be very good - from memory 1.5mm^2 would be about 30mV/Am (milli volts per amp . meter) - you are going to see at least 0.3V drop for every meter on this cable at 12A.

The other thing to bear in mind is a concept know a 'discrimination' - it is where a larger fuse is placed upstream and a smaller fuse downstream. In a car you may have a 50A fusible link at the battery and 15A fuse on each headlight. In case of a short circuit occuring after the small fuse, only the smaller fuse blows - it blows much quicker - this has to do with the 'tripping curve' of the larger fuse versus that of the smaller fuse - talked about above. If there is a short circuit on the larger wiring after the fusible link, before the headlight fuse then the fusible link blows. Point is a 20A fuse after a 15A fuses is useless as it will never blow - so bear in mind what fuses you have installed upstream of any new fuses you add. Discrimination can be used to your advantage - in the case of a spotlight relay wired to the highbeam circuit - if you install a 1A or 3A fuse on the relay supply after you tap it from the headlight plug then if you have a fault with your relay wiring or spotty switch you won't blow the 15A headlight fuse (and you can use really thin gauge wire as well because it is protected by a small fuse).

Reubs

[tmb99]

Link is dead - here is updated one;

http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=2236.0

Had to do some tidy joins and soldering today so had a quick read up!

[atari4x4]

cheers tmb99, looks like they moved servers.... will edit the first post so it's got the updated link.