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| Crown and Pinon swap Vitara https://www.auszookers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8325 |
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| Author: | Westie [ Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
Ok this maybe a stupid question so let me explain what I am chasing. Car is Stretch a 94 Vitara wagon Manualwith 5.12 ratio diffs. after something around the 5.37 8/43 tooth or 5.62 8/45. Want to end up with it able to still pull camper through soft sand in 3-5th low range at a good speed ( not 30kph as cre=awl gears will give me) Also it will give me a slower 1st low range in Glasshouse as I run 235's tyres. By doing this it will decrease the low speed in 1st low and also decrease the top end 5th High range. This is ok as far as I am concerned. NOW is there available IN AUSTRALIA out of something TOYOTA, NISSAN, FORD, SUZUKI, DIAHATSU Etc. any make or model that will interchange with the vit with minimual effort. As you can not tell me that they made those centres just for Vitaras. Have rang Diff lapping Kedron Brisbane and suzu4 wreckers and other SPECIALIST. They say that Info is kept to the manafactors locked safe and is not available to anyone to look up. Toyota you can walk in and say I want to change the ratio in my truck and from what I have been told they say and what ratio would you like sir!! Ok Now throw it at me |
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| Author: | joeblow [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
one of the best products i have seen recently would be this. the 'undertaker'. http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/kickdrivetrain.htm yes, its a 1.5 underdrive, but would be perfect for 31's or above. aftermarketr gears for these diffs are sporadic in production and very weak in design. with this you would not need to touch the vit low range gears, there will be plenty of gearing. even if you increase revs a few hundred rpm this will not be detramental, as it will be working under minimal load, but going to a 31 inch minimum tyre will be best. this is what i would by for my vit as its simple and well designed. |
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| Author: | Polar_Bear [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
yeah that looks the goods, but is 31" too small a tyre to run? what diff ratio would you need to swap to run 31's? |
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| Author: | royce [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
I think the Drama with finding something different is vits being different size front and rear you arent looking for much of a gearing change, how about looking to get more power at lower revs? |
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| Author: | Westie [ Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
Thanks for that Joe. That looks good and would suit me for what i am trying to get the Vit to do with the added bonus of adding 31's to it and maybe the need of a Body Lift. Would be great if they did a 2 speed diff set up, |
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| Author: | rob_macca67 [ Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
Westie wrote: Thanks for that Joe. That looks good and would suit me for what i am trying to get the Vit to do with the added bonus of adding 31's to it and maybe the need of a Body Lift. Would be great if they did a 2 soeed diff ste up,
Go the Body Lift there Westie.... I'll give u a hand 
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| Author: | rob_macca67 [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
Has anybody on here sourced any of these diff ratios for the Vitaras overseas (ie 5.38; 5.68; 5.88) 
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| Author: | RIKSTR [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
joeblow wrote: one of the best products i have seen recently would be this. the 'undertaker'.
http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/kickdrivetrain.htm yes, its a 1.5 underdrive, but would be perfect for 31's or above. aftermarketr gears for these diffs are sporadic in production and very weak in design. with this you would not need to touch the vit low range gears, there will be plenty of gearing. even if you increase revs a few hundred rpm this will not be detramental, as it will be working under minimal load, but going to a 31 inch minimum tyre will be best. this is what i would by for my vit as its simple and well designed. These are made by trail tough aren't they Undertaker |
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| Author: | robbo [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
keep an eye out on the us forums they come up for sale fairly often in 5.38 and 5.6??. With exchange rate not too bad as long as you dont mind freight. the last set of 5.83 i saw went for about $1000. and the 5.38 $150 |
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| Author: | rob_macca67 [ Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara vs the UNDERTAKER |
Joe.... Do u know how these operate ?? Is it electically / vacuum or by some other way? Looking at the Pics it also seems the Front Driveshaft may come close to the X-member cheers rob joeblow wrote: one of the best products i have seen recently would be this. the 'undertaker'.
http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/kickdrivetrain.htm yes, its a 1.5 underdrive, but would be perfect for 31's or above. aftermarketr gears for these diffs are sporadic in production and very weak in design. with this you would not need to touch the vit low range gears, there will be plenty of gearing. even if you increase revs a few hundred rpm this will not be detramental, as it will be working under minimal load, but going to a 31 inch minimum tyre will be best. this is what i would by for my vit as its simple and well designed. |
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| Author: | steak_knife [ Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
Reading the add it just an under drive 1.5 turn's go in & 1 come's out, no leaver needed  
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| Author: | steak_knife [ Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara vs the UNDERTAKER |
rob_macca67 wrote: Joe....
Do u know how these operate ?? Is it electically / vacuum or by some other way? Looking at the Pics it also seems the Front Driveshaft may come close to the X-member cheers rob That look's like the shaft is unbolted, vit's diffs are bolted in, shaft spin's straight. |
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| Author: | rob_macca67 [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
Yeah, Just noticed that where the Front Drive shaft connects to the Transfer is different. The one on mine slides in where the one in the pic has a flange that the Drive shift bolts to...... I thought all Vits were the same ?? |
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| Author: | Fatzook [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
rob_macca67 wrote: Yeah, Just noticed that where the Front Drive shaft connects to the Transfer is different. The one on mine slides in where the one in the pic has a flange that the Drive shift bolts to...... I thought all Vits were the same ??
All vits are the same. That transfer case has been upgraded with slip yoke eliminators. This allows for a normal driveshaft to be fitted that has its own slip joint. |
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| Author: | cj_zuki [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
You need to separate the t-case from the trans and the Undertaker gets bolted in between. This shfits your t-case lever further back in the car. As you are still using your t-case the slip yokes still work. What you are looking at is the Trail Tough slip yoke eliminator kit which you don't need to run. Although the Undertaker is a nice piece of gear and has its place it is not a cheap solution or even ideal for those running small tyres like 31's. If you look at the gearing change, a 1.5 reduction with no other changes to diff ratios will allow you to run 40" tyres at the same rpm as if you were running the stock 27" tyres. Now you can always do an R&P swap to help this out. Lets say you want to run 31's so if you initially had 5.125's and could get some 4.3's from a GV you would only be running at around 300rpm more at 110kmh, 4.625's would add 600rpm and 4.875's would add 800rpm and staying with the 5.125's would add 1000rpm. These are approximate figures to give an indication. So what are you looking at? USD$1295 plus shipping and possibly 5% duty (4wd parts) and 10% GST as you over the $1000 threshold although you may not have to pay depending on how Customs feels. You also need to have both front and rear driveshafts modified, one lengthened and one shortened and balanced and possibly find new R&P's for the front and rear diffs and have them installed as well. It will not be a cheap excercise for 31's to get more on road performance back but if you were to run 33"-35" then it starts to make sense. For 31's I'd just tweak the motor a little and call it good. Now if Trail Tough offered a 1.3 reduction that would be greaat for anybody looking at 30"to 33" in my book as at least you would avoid the expense of changing the R&P's and still have pretty close to standard performance. The old 5.83 R&P's that Richmond gear designed for Calmini were actually stronger than the Factory 5.38's and 5.62's that we never saw anyway but I think incorrect setup contributed to a number of failures, plenty manage to kill the Factory 5.125's too while others are still happily driving on the 5.83's. Solid pinion spacers and correct installation would help here. It does help with the crawl ratio and depending upon what diff ratio and trans you run it with you could have a ratio between 30 and 51 and you will have lost some of that effectiveness due to larger tyres so you may still end up adding t-case gears into the mix. Just some food for thought. |
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| Author: | rob_macca67 [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
OK... thanks for that.... I think I mis-understood what it did. I thought u could bring it in & out of play as req'd. (ie: use it as before 1:1 or if u req'd better gearing, then click it in and utilise the 1.5 reduction benefit) So.... from re-reading it, it reduces High & Low Range by a factor 1.5x.... is that correct?? |
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| Author: | rob_macca67 [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
cj_zuki wrote: The old 5.83 R&P's that Richmond gear designed for Calmini were actually stronger than the Factory 5.38's and 5.62's that we never saw anyway but I think incorrect setup contributed to a number of failures, plenty manage to kill the Factory 5.125's too while others are still happily driving on the 5.83's. Solid pinion spacers and correct installation would help here.
Do Calmini still offer these 5.83 R&P's ?? |
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| Author: | cj_zuki [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
Yes, it is a permanent rduction in high and low. No, the 5.83's have not been available for quite some time. |
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| Author: | rob_macca67 [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
cj_zuki wrote: Yes, it is a permanent rduction in high and low.
No, the 5.83's have not been available for quite some time. No worries, thanks for that..... That's not going to achieve what I want. A group of us were exploring through the Mountains of Kenilworth SF and I was behind a Patrol and noticed that his speed was too slow for 1st high, so I just drove around in Low Range 2nd/3rd or if more speed was req'd then 4th/5th Low Range w/o having to stop to go back into HIGH Range which was great. I was thinking IF I HAD REDUCTION GEARS, then in this situation I would have to stop all the time and change from Low Range back into high for speed purposes or stop to go from High to low due to the speed being too slow for 1st High. From using: Reduction Gear Calculation it seems 1st HIGH Range is similar to 5th LOW Range with Reduction gears. So from this if I had Reduction Gears, I would loose the current flexibility I have with my current std setup (not having to stop as much to change between LOW/HIGH) but I would gain with extra slow speed in steep climbs /decents..... not sure as to which way to go.....does anyone have reduction gears in their Vitaras that could shed some light on what they found before & after reduction gears??? cheers....rob (PS Hope the above makes sense  )
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| Author: | christover1 [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
joeblow wrote: one of the best products i have seen recently would be this. the 'undertaker'.
http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/kickdrivetrain.htm yes, its a 1.5 underdrive, but would be perfect for 31's or above. . with this you would not need to touch the vit low range gears, there will be plenty of gearing. even if you increase revs a few hundred rpm this will not be detramental, as it will be working under minimal load, but going to a 31 inch minimum tyre will be best. this is what i would by for my vit as its simple and well designed. I would love one of these. I think gearing/power band was more of an issue than lack of front locker, on the last trip. Often had grip, but no power or movement, till I revved the xxxx out of it. But success at a greater speed than comfortable. With 31's it would be enough without any transfer gears, and would be more useable on road. About the same undergearing that my sierra Frog was. Be very little chance of speeding
Could tow a bit easier too. Now just need to find the umpteen thousand bucks for the job
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| Author: | shandy92 [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
joeblow wrote: one of the best products i have seen recently would be this. the 'undertaker'.
http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/kickdrivetrain.htm yes, its a 1.5 underdrive, but would be perfect for 31's or above. aftermarketr gears for these diffs are sporadic in production and very weak in design. with this you would not need to touch the vit low range gears, there will be plenty of gearing. even if you increase revs a few hundred rpm this will not be detramental, as it will be working under minimal load, but going to a 31 inch minimum tyre will be best. this is what i would by for my vit as its simple and well designed. yeah i have looked at this many times and have thought "if only it was cheaper" i think that this would solve a lot of limitations for us 1.6L vitara boys have. is anyone running one of them?? are those other R&P gears still available? or have they gone "mythical" cheaper with group buy??? cheers Mitch |
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| Author: | Bucket [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
shandy92 wrote: joeblow wrote: one of the best products i have seen recently would be this. the 'undertaker'. http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/kickdrivetrain.htm yes, its a 1.5 underdrive, but would be perfect for 31's or above. aftermarketr gears for these diffs are sporadic in production and very weak in design. with this you would not need to touch the vit low range gears, there will be plenty of gearing. even if you increase revs a few hundred rpm this will not be detramental, as it will be working under minimal load, but going to a 31 inch minimum tyre will be best. this is what i would by for my vit as its simple and well designed. yeah i have looked at this many times and have thought "if only it was cheaper" i think that this would solve a lot of limitations for us 1.6L vitara boys have. is anyone running one of them?? are those other R&P gears still available? or have they gone "mythical" cheaper with group buy??? cheers Mitch Gone, unless you manage to find a second hand pair |
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| Author: | Bucket [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
Since this has been brought up again, i've decided I should look at a few options and post here and see what everone thinks. From what I can gather, vit owners have it a bit harder in terms of swapping gearing over, especially in the 1.6s. Theres a few options like: -CALMINI 4.1 transfer case gears (doesn't affect high range) -"The Undertaker", but is not really practical unless you plan on running huge tyres, in which case axles would "probably" be changed and cases too. -Dual Transfer Cases, more common in a lot of overseas buildups, but i'm presuming that it's similar to the Undertaker and would be for large tyres. -Mythical calmini diff gears |
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| Author: | shandy92 [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
Bucket wrote: Theres a few options like:
-CALMINI 4.1 transfer case gears (doesn't affect high range) -"The Undertaker", but is not really practical unless you plan on running huge tyres, in which case axles would "probably" be changed and cases too. -Dual Transfer Cases, more common in a lot of overseas buildups, but i'm presuming that it's similar to the Undertaker and would be for large tyres. -Mythical calmini diff gears and the only 1 which really seam half reasonable is the twin cases. was looking at this earlier, this means that u would have to chop off part of the vit case (front out put shaft section) as the second case now has this. even this doesnt sound easily done. anyone ever put a leafy case in a vit??? wouldnt be to much work, just the fab of an adapter from the vit box to leafy case? cheers Mitch |
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| Author: | Bucket [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
Mmmm, dunno about that so much. I'd be leaning towards transfer case gears, but then again that only solves the low gears. Does anyone know what size tyres the CALMINI gears are made for, or is it just to lower ratios and tyre size isn't really an issue? |
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| Author: | Joe [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
shandy92 wrote: Bucket wrote: Theres a few options like: -CALMINI 4.1 transfer case gears (doesn't affect high range) -"The Undertaker", but is not really practical unless you plan on running huge tyres, in which case axles would "probably" be changed and cases too. -Dual Transfer Cases, more common in a lot of overseas buildups, but i'm presuming that it's similar to the Undertaker and would be for large tyres. -Mythical calmini diff gears and the only 1 which really seam half reasonable is the twin cases. was looking at this earlier, this means that u would have to chop off part of the vit case (front out put shaft section) as the second case now has this. even this doesnt sound easily done. anyone ever put a leafy case in a vit??? wouldnt be to much work, just the fab of an adapter from the vit box to leafy case? cheers Mitch Joeblow has done a few i think |
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| Author: | christover1 [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
My Sierra was 12% under geared, even with 31's, (lj 4:9 diffs, 1.0 litre transfer) and it was very satisfactory on and off road..we are only allowed to do 100kph anyway\. My Sierra read 100kph for an actual 86kph...speedo could peg out at over 120 )
Rough calculations, a undertaker would achieve similar with same 31's on me vit |
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| Author: | shandy92 [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
christover1 wrote: My Sierra was 12% under geared, even with 31's, (lj 4:9 diffs, 1.0 litre transfer) and it was very satisfactory on and off road..we are only allowed to do 100kph anyway\.
My Sierra read 100kph for an actual 86kph...speedo could peg out at over 120 )Rough calculations, a undertaker would achieve similar with same 31's on me vit are u saying that an undertaker would make things worse or better? sounds like you are saying the undertaker is bad or would make it worse? Mitch |
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| Author: | Bucket [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
The way I see it, if the car isn't struggling to do the type of driving you do and your not redlining it every trip, it should be fine. I keep hearing about how bad my gearing is on 30s, but i've honestly never known anything else (2days after I got my P plates I got the muddies) I've weighed up getting a lokka, but i've never been in a situation where it would've helped. I either get bogged tits deep or pick the line I know my car can get through. EDIT: I realise I went slightly offtopic, but it's just my opinion on weighing up the required mods. |
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| Author: | christover1 [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Crown and Pinon swap Vitara |
shandy92 wrote: are u saying that an undertaker would make things worse or better? sounds like you are saying the undertaker is bad or would make it worse?
Mitch Late night, long day, I don't always make sense
I meant that I believe my vit would be better with an undertaker, the way I use my car, and with my lack of need for road speed.. My Sierra was under geared and it suited me fine. I not likely to ever scrape up the dough, but I allow myself to dream
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