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Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2024 9:36 am
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Post Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2025 3:06 pm 
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Hey, does anyone have any recourses for radius arm geometry in 4wd applications? I can't find anywhere else that triangulates the arms to reduce roll stiffness and can't find anything that specifies choosing how much triangulation is wanted.
The only way I can see forward is mounting testing and redoing the mounts until I get something I like.

This is my mockup as of now. Cheers


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Post Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2025 10:07 pm 
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Radius arm suspension is "new to me" and I'm eager to learn more, but, I'm having a difficulty in understanding how/why triangulating them will reduce roll stiffness.

This may be a simplistic point of view, but you seem to be using what look like Land Rover radius arms and as I understand it, the way the arms attach to the axle resists flex, with flex being the movement of the axle relatively to the body, and roll being the opposite, the movement of the body relative to the axle.

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2025 8:32 am 
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From what I understand it's sort of like the old Ford radius rod suspension where the frame end has one mount in the centre of the frame and allows the axle to articulate very easily.
From what I gather the closer you bring the frame mounts together the easier it becomes for the axle to articulate under the frame but I'm still unsure as to how much is desirable because obviously the issue with mounting them at one point on the frame is that you would get incredible body roll and a very floppy ride.

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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:30 pm
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Post Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2025 7:49 pm 
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Lots to unpack here, I’ll reply in detail when I have some time.

In summary, suspension links shouldn’t add any roll stiffness, links should set geometry, that’s all.

Triangulated radius arms just end up working like a 1 link. One links work just fine. (Unimogs are one link front and rear)

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Post Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2025 4:29 pm 
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Sorry Steve, but Ive deffinately read posts from you saying that radius arms cause inherent roll stiffness and that triangulating the arms reduces that roll stiffness. I do understand that technically it's the bushes in the radius arms that cause the stiffness but I'm deffinately (obviously) missing something here. Would love to hear a more detailed explanation and any info you have on setting up the arms.

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Post Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2025 5:04 pm 
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Hi Tawatree, yes, I'm in front of a computer, I'll explain in more detail.

My point was in an ideal world, the suspension links/geometry should never add any roll stiffness - that's the job of the springs (including, if required, an antiroll bar) We can't completely eliminate roll stiffness with radius arms, but it can be minimised.

I'll explain by starting with a one link.

A one link suspension consists of an A frame looking link with a single pivot at the chassis end. Lateral axle location is provided by a panhard rod or Watts Linkage. (so, yes, technically there are two links)

A one link offers no roll stiffness at all. It also has no means to adjust antisquat, and one links have very high antisquat.

The key factor with a one link is that its bolted/welded solidly to the axle housing. ALL the pivoting is done at the chassis end. Often a very large heim/jonny joint or even a trailer ball is used to provide high angularity.

Here is a photo of a typically agricultural looking one link. I'll stress again, these provide unimpeded travel (no roll stiffness induced by the links) with the axle end welded solidly to the housing.

Image

In contrast, a "conventional" - (with the arms parallel to each other)" Radius arm suspension has very high roll stiffness. the bushes at the chassis end don't add much roll stiffness at all (if they're well designed) but the big issue is at the axle end. with parallel arms, (viewed from above) as one wheel rises and the other falls, in order to flex, the arms have to twist relative to each other around the axle housing. There's lots of rubber that has to be pushed around to make this happen, so that starts adding bind to the suspension. not in travel, but in flex. Manufacturers exploit this to make they cars understeer and to limit body roll.

In extreme cases, the axle housing starts to twist too once the bushes are fully bound up.

However, the more the arms are triangulated at the chassis end, the less the axle end bushes have to deform to achieve flex.

To prove my point, heres a simple experiment to prove the effect. It's not perfect but you'll feel my point.

Grab a pencil or pen and hold it between your finger tips like this:

Image

Imagine this is looking down at your car from above and the pen is the front axle.

Now "flex" the front axle by cocking one wrist down and the other up:

Like so:

Image

You will immediately feel the pen twisting in your fingers as you do this. That's what the bushes are there to allow but obviously they're inherently trying to fight that.

Now, if we triangulate our radius arms by putting our wrists together:

Image

and then flex our axle, we're actually just rolling around a central point where our wrists meet, and the pen doesn't twist at all relative to our fingertips.

Image

We've just (sort of) made a one link.

This is the easiest way I can describe the effect on roll stiffness of triangulating radius arms at the chassis.

There are practical limits however - trying to aggressively bring the arms together normally will add a deep crossmember under the gearbox and will cause issues for clearance and front driveshaft room.

I initially did this for packaging - I didn't want the arms under the chassis and I wanted the arms as far inboard of the wheels as possible to maximise steering angle/tyre room but it became clear there was a large improvement in roll stiffness.

Is there a magic formula? No, I don't think so, more is better, but there will be inevitable compromise around packaging.

The other issue with suzuki axles is that there ends up very little room around the diff on the driver's side.

Otherwise the advice would be to get the arms as flat as possible at ride height. Note that suzuki basically run their arms rising to the axle at ride height in a Jimny - this is to provide the best ride quality.

I hope this helps.

Whilst I subsequently converted my car to three link front TBH roll stiffness wasn't the major driver, it was about restoring compression travel and being able to run the car low as my flipped radius arms were sitting between the chassis and the axle.

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Post Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2025 4:03 pm 
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Cheers, I'll give it a go and see what I can work out. For the rear I'll also be running the same radius arms, do those want to be triangulated too?
I deffinately want the front to flex slightly more than the rear but I assume I still want some amount of triangulation but with the arms spaced wider I guess?

Also if I'm running Vitara springs all around how can I balance the rear travel better? Based on running the same spring rate front and rear, I'll have alot more up-travel in the rear and more droop in the front due to the much higher front weight. I'm already going to be running the softest springs I can find for the front to maximize total travel with a lower ride height but I can't see any way to get the up-travel/droop balance closer, so maybe that's just the way it's going to be?
Cheers

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Post Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2025 6:02 am 
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There are a couple of practical considerations affecting the rear end design.

Higher rear roll stiffness is desirable- this aids keeping the car stable when climbing.

The rear differential centre and relationship between the transfer case and chassis limits where the arms can mount on the chassis end.

Without heavy modifications to chassis the rear springs end up well inboard which lowers roll stiffness so running the rear arms wider and with less triangulation helps restore stability.

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