[just_cruizin]

I'm planning the electrical playout for my new shed and I'm looking into which 3 phase outlets I should be using the 4 or 5 pin options, I haven't spoken to a sparky yet and will be doing that but I'm interested to here other's thoughts.

[Rusho]

Depends what your going to be using in the shed. Some 3 phase motors don't need a neutral. You could just run 2 outlets in there for the sake of some extra $$'s

[SuziBlu]

Put on 5 pin, then you do not need to run a single phase line, you can take single out of the 3 phase, with 4 pin, this option is not available, an you will have to run two lines, more cost.

[tombutt]

yeah go the 5 pin more flexible in the long run

[lump_a_charcoal]

SUziblu is right, to an extent.

If you are going to have a sub board at the shed, then run 3 phase and neutral.
If you are just running circuits from your house switchboard then run what you need. Not many appliances need 3 phase and neutral.

It depends on what you will be running in there.

[Built4thrashing]

actually alot of things need a neutral...Even if it is 3 phase quite often you need 240v for the control circuits best to run a nuetral and if ya dont need it then just dont use it.


Its a pain if its not there and you need it.


B4T

[SuziBlu]

Lumpa, yea should have expollated some, when you know, its hard to remember to explain all, lol a sub board was just taken for granted as without nothing happens.

Sorry just cruisin.

[just_cruizin]

That's great guys, The shed will be 60m odd from the front of the block, and will have a sub board in it. So 5 core cable is the go all the way. I'll be having 22 double 240V outlets, 3 x 3 phase outlets and about 30 lights so the power consumption could be a bit. It's a decent size shed

[just_cruizin]

If I put in 5 pin sockets is it OK to run 4 pin machines off it?

[SuziBlu]

Yes, 4 pin is 3 actives and an earth, 5 pin is 3 actives, an earth, and a neutral.

[SuziBlu]

just_cruizin wrote:

That's great guys, The shed will be 60m odd from the front of the block, and will have a sub board in it. So 5 core cable is the go all the way. I'll be having 22 double 240V outlets, 3 x 3 phase outlets and about 30 lights so the power consumption could be a bit. It's a decent size shed

Five pin is the only way you can do this realistically.

To run single and 3 phase that far is so cost prohibitive as to be not worth mentioning, let alone silly.

[just_cruizin]

That's what I was thinking, that way I can split the load from the 240V outlets across the three phases.

Next question is what size cabling do I run, I would rather run too big then not big enough. Probably run the same size from the street to the house (not built yet) which will have the normal domestic load + a 11 or 14kw 3 phase air con system.

Such much to consider when you're building.

[SuziBlu]

Now yr talking formulas that I do not have, this will be for the sparky to work out, are you going underground or overground, huge difference is size of cable, and cost, what is your projected usage in the shed.

Remember, its max single load, so you are going to have shit loads of GPOs, but how many will be used at once, lights, ok, easy to work out, what sort, that will give current draw, but the others, the 3x3 phase outlets, will they be all used at once, etc, like you say bigger is better, allows for expansion. Work out how much, and add some, 10% - 50%, its your purse/call.

[tombutt]

I could work it all out but I'm a lazy prick from memory with out looking at my rule book a double gpo is 2 amp lights I can't remeber

It's all worked out on maxium demand and that is also afected if it's buisness or personal there are tables in the as/nzs 3008:2007 to help with this

[Rusho]

Overhead would be shit loads cheaper. Depends where you existing mains and main s/board are. A bloke at work might be able to help you out with it if you don't already have a sparky for it?

Energex standard 3 phase overhead service conductor is 4 core/25mm. You are probably going to want an upgrade I can ask more questions at work if you like??

[joeblow]

Built4thrashing wrote:

actually alot of things need a neutral...Even if it is 3 phase quite often you need 240v for the control circuits best to run a nuetral and if ya dont need it then just dont use it.


Its a pain if its not there and you need it.


B4T

what he said, most of my machines are 5 pin.

[Shansh]

i would be putting in 16mm2 cable which is the same size as the consumers mains going to the house, but with the distance of 60m you will get voltage drop so you need a bit bigger able to overcome that, also with the potential load in the shed you want to cover your arse and not penny pinch and cut it too fine on cable size, its not going to be a cheap exercise whatever way you go

[tombutt]

yeah id over head it but id watch out mate dont get engerex to do it you will still be waiting for them to come back off smoko this time next year

[zuk_244]

I would do a under ground install for sure, its set and forget then. If ya do a aerial cable the you always have to watch You dont knock it down with a truck etc.

16mm2 is the smallest you would go for the shed. For most places they work out the cable size by max demand which would work out about:
30 lights (fluros) x 40w each = 1200w
44 gpo's (22 Doubles) @ 1000w for the first 400w each for the rest= 18600w
3 15A gpo's =15A a phase <<<<You will want some single phase 15A Outlets
2 15A 3phase outlets = 20A

So with that you have 19800w in light and gpo's which is 86A.
Spread that accross 3 phases is about 29A per phase plus a 15A gpo per phase plus 20A for your 3phase outlets = 64A Per Phase

So 16mm could just scrape (could go abit bigger for voltage drop) in but in the real world unless you are running a business out of the shed there is no way you will be using all your tools at once!

[Rusho]

tombutt wrote:

yeah id over head it but id watch out mate dont get engerex to do it you will still be waiting for them to come back off smoko this time next year

you'd be lucky to have a half a days work for a property pole or 2 and hanging the service. We work when we need to, it's all about time management

[zuk_244]

Another way you could do it is run a larger cable to your house then take the 16mm from the house to the shed.
This would you dont have to pay for a meter rental for the shed and the house.
Have a talk to a good sparky and they will sort you out, alot of sparkies will have abit of a personal preference on how to do the job.

[Rusho]

zuk_244 wrote:

Another way you could do it is run a larger cable to your house then take the 16mm from the house to the shed.
This would you dont have to pay for a meter rental for the shed and the house.
Have a talk to a good sparky and they will sort you out, alot of sparkies will have abit of a personal preference on how to do the job.

x 2, everyone is different. You can't have 2 meters in a single domestic installation anyway, unless your shed is 200 meters away from the meter box. They have to be in the one convienient location for billing purposes. Might be different down your way

[got_bar_work]

i would go 25- 35mm underground from where ever your meter is.
go see a sparky, get him to supply the gear then come and hook it up. then u just dig the trench, run the condute and pull the cable through your self. would be heaps cheaper
y ur there run a 20mm austel condute with 2 cat 5 to ur house as well
that way u can run a phone and a network outlet in the shed
i alway use my laptop out in the shed when working on my car
its great to look up "how to" and stuff on

[Built4thrashing]

So i take it your gonna build the shed first and then build the house later? If so then the board in the shed will be your main board. If it was my place i'd run a minimum or 25mm. over 60m you would still get close to 80 amps. then it would be either 10mm or 16mm to the house from the shed.

Its always better to over allow and spend the little bit extra first off than to find out its not enough later as you would be up for the whole lot again.
Underground is the only way to go. Private arial supplys are a thing of the past and are dangerous especially if you own any machinary. Minimum height above any ground a vehicle can travel is 4.6m.

good luck and ask as many q as you want

B4T

[Shansh]

Underground is the only way to go. Private arial supplys are a thing of the past and are dangerous especially if you own any machinary. Minimum height above any ground a vehicle can travel is 4.6m.

X 2

dont even consider overhead mate it will be way more drama than it is worth underground is the only way to do it, just do it along the side of the drive or whatever access you have down to the shed, just remember minimum 600mm depth to the top of the conductors or conduit to be buried, so I would dig around 900mm to alllow for crusher dust bedding & river sand on top

[lump_a_charcoal]

Two things -

Don't worry about what size cable to run, that is the sparkies job to work out.
Also, go underground - At the same time, run water out there too.

[Shansh]

lump_a_charcoal wrote:

Two things -

Don't worry about what size cable to run, that is the sparkies job to work out.
Also, go underground - At the same time, run water out there too.

i am a sparky mate, just trying to give him a little bit of info so some dodgy bastard doesnt try to sell him huge cable when he doesnt need it, the weater sounds like a great idea, also somebody earlier suggested running a cat 5 cable out there as well, another top idea while your at it

[just_cruizin]

got_bar_work wrote:

i would go 25- 35mm underground from where ever your meter is.
go see a sparky, get him to supply the gear then come and hook it up. then u just dig the trench, run the condute and pull the cable through your self. would be heaps cheaper
y ur there run a 20mm austel condute with 2 cat 5 to ur house as well
that way u can run a phone and a network outlet in the shed
i alway use my laptop out in the shed when working on my car
its great to look up "how to" and stuff on

2 x Cat 5 is already on the list.

Definately going U/G, estate is all underground and I hate having wires hangin everywhere.

It's only personal use, but as you say extra spent up front saves later on.

I'm overkilling the amount of points I'm having, nothing worse then leads everywhere or having to unplug stuff all the time.

Water is on the list, goes with the toilet. That was the wifes idea, she doesn't want all the mates going in the house to use the toilet, tried to tell her they would just go behind the shed but she wasn't keen on that either.

Hopefully house and shed will start about the same time, so I'm not sure how the meter box will go. Would really like the meters and safety switch on the front fence and the rest of the C/B at the house then run to the shed C/B plan from there but we'll have to wait and see what happens with that.

I'll be laying the conduit etc, can the cat 5 run in the same conduit or even the same trench for that matter? I'll be hiring a dingo with trenching tool to dig the trenches for this and extra drainage etc.

[Shansh]

same trench is ok mate with a bit of sand separating the two conduits, not the same conduit though as the magnetic field created around the power cable will interefere unless you have shielded cat5, even then i would still separate it

[fordem]

Shansh wrote:

same trench is ok mate with a bit of sand separating the two conduits, not the same conduit though as the magnetic field created around the power cable will interefere unless you have shielded cat5, even then i would still separate it

X2 - ideally you want them at least 6" apart.