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| Author: | mtooka [ Wed May 19, 2010 7:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | E85 Fuel |
Guys, Just wondering if anyone has experimented with E85 104 octane fuel. Its around 99c per litre, here in Melbourne To my thinking, even a 50/50 mix of this and 91ron unleaded, you would have an E7.5 with 97ron??? At approx $1.10 ltr between the two costs (i.e 99c, and $1.20 for 91ron) Anyone had any issues using it? any potential issues in the 1.3. Obviously timing advancement would be beneficial. Will the old beast run like SH*t if I start using it? Any comments welcome |
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| Author: | shep [ Wed May 19, 2010 7:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
if it is any thing like opal fuel, i had to retard my ignition to 4deg at idle to stop it pinging. |
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| Author: | lump_a_charcoal [ Wed May 19, 2010 7:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
Don't use it. It made my engine run like shit, and tests that my mechanic has done has really shown how bad it can be for some cars. Stick with PULP. |
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| Author: | eldo [ Wed May 19, 2010 8:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
my little beast has been pinging of late on caltex pulp, got a sneaky feeling that its an E10 fuel without them telling us |
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| Author: | jdk81 [ Wed May 19, 2010 8:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
EDITED: did calcs, and removed opinion Ethanol: 26.7 MJ/kg Gasoline: 44 MJ/kg Density of ethanl 0.79 kg/l Density of petrol 0.74 kg/l E85 = 26.7 MJ/kg x 0.79 kg/L x 85% x 1l = 17.93 MJ/l 44 MJ/kg x 0.74 kg/l x 15% x 1l = 4.88 MJ/l Total = 22.81 MJ/l E10 = 26.7 MJ/kg x 0.79 kg/l x 10% x 1L = 2.11MJ/l 44 MJ/kg x 0.74 kg/l x 90% x 1L =29.3 MJ/l Total =31.41 MJ/l Normal Petrol 44 MJ/kg x 0.74 kg/l = 32.56 MJ/l Your mix of e85 and petrol 22.81 x 50% + 32.56 x 50% = 27.7 MJ/l Price comparison E85 $0.99/l ( 4.34 c/MJ) 91ron $1.20/l (3.686 c/MJ your mix is costing $1.20 x 50% + $0.99 x 50% = 1.095 $/l (3.95 c/MJ) 91 ron is superior, dont be cheap as its false economy |
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| Author: | mcwilly [ Wed May 19, 2010 8:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
e85 burns more efficient and cleaner. however this means that u need to pump more fuel in. you have to set your car up to run e85 otherwise it will run lean |
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| Author: | ball [ Wed May 19, 2010 8:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
eldo wrote: my little beast has been pinging of late on caltex pulp, got a sneaky feeling that its an E10 fuel without them telling us
Anything with more than 1% ethanol in it is supposed to have the bowser labeled. It is against the law for them to just dump that crap in the ground. |
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| Author: | Gwagensteve [ Wed May 19, 2010 8:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
mcwilly wrote: e85 burns more efficient and cleaner. however this means that u need to pump more fuel in. you have to set your car up to run e85 otherwise it will run lean
Did you even read the post above? Ethanol is LESS efficient - Stoich for ethanol is much, much richer than petrol - stoich for ethanol is 9:1, petrol is 14.7:1 It can produce more power so long as you are physically able to throw enough if it into the car, but its effect on octane isn't that straightforward. Yes, it burns cleaner, yes, it is renewable. It's also massively corrosive. e85 able cars have stainless steel fuel systems. It is particularly corrosive to aluminium... and guess what a sierra/vitara fuel system is made of? I wouldn't bother. Steve. |
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| Author: | laurie [ Wed May 19, 2010 8:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
avoid it. stick to petrol. shit ball you have a very yellow skin tone and yor eyes look like x's |
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| Author: | Brett [ Wed May 19, 2010 8:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
tune your car like its on methanol and you wont be to far off. you need to put huge jets in and change your dizzy curve. i have a mate running a big block on this stuff in canberra and is going back to normal 98 because suply isnt always there. un less you buy a car that is set up for it its not worth the problems |
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| Author: | 89_tintop [ Wed May 19, 2010 8:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
eldo wrote: my little beast has been pinging of late on caltex pulp, got a sneaky feeling that its an E10 fuel without them telling us
i got the same shit the other day and the sierra is pinginf off its head.. knocked the timing back a lil till i use te tank up and it helped a little.. will never use caltex fuel again.. i will stick with bp or shell |
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| Author: | Moph [ Wed May 19, 2010 9:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
E85 ... shudder. Put one tank of it through the Zook years back when the local was out of standard 91RON and I didn't have enough fuel to make it elsewhere. Completely stuffed my carby by cleaning 15 years of gunk from the inside of the fuel lines and dumping it in the jets. It's way too aggressive/corrosive/whatever for the old gunked up fuel system in my junk. 95RON and 10-12 degrees BTDC FTW. |
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| Author: | royce [ Wed May 19, 2010 10:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
I cant wait till its available mainstream in Brisbane, going to build my mini engine to suit it for more powa 
the shit has anti corrosion shit in it too, its not methanol Holden will have an e85 car out this year, and is partnering with caltex to have the fuel at all sites, Caltex is also pushing hard to get its Ethanol Terminal at Newcastle finished |
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| Author: | DR_JOSH [ Wed May 19, 2010 11:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
I hate the stuff but setup right it does result in huge power gains, you just use about 85% more of the stuff then PULP. My mate ran it on his Evo 6, stock standard apart from an exhaust. went from 160AWKW@14psi, to 260AWKW @ 26psi, with a possibility to run a bulk load more timing and it ran cooler then normal. However this was running 4x 1000cc injectors and a huge ass pump all on a little 2L |
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| Author: | Gwagensteve [ Wed May 19, 2010 11:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
There's no doubt you could build a mini engine to run it, but that's not the same as running a G13B on it. It is highly corrosive which is why LS motors now run stainless fuel rails, as an example. I've spent hours discussing ethanol with Bosch technical specialists at Bosch HQ in Melbourne. They have to tune motors to run it and they fawking hate the stuff. Yes, it can make power, but it's a nightmare. Steve. |
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| Author: | royce [ Wed May 19, 2010 11:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
OK if its so corrosive, why did I just sell Caltex a metric fuckload of pipe and fittings for their Ethanol terminal that exactly 0% of it is stainless? this isnt a company that takes risks in these situations and be fucked if Bosch tunes anyones engines, like a car company is going to farm that out |
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| Author: | DR_JOSH [ Wed May 19, 2010 11:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
Well it was available mainstream in Adelaide for a little while, then without a word of warning it was taken off the bowzer. Thier excuse was that none of the fitting on the current bowzers where up to the recommended standards for E85. Now it's only available at the newer servos which have new bowzers. |
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| Author: | mcwilly [ Wed May 19, 2010 2:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
That post wasn't there when I posted my comment. Hence not reading it. Give me a month or 2 and I'll have some Dyno readouts of 98 versus e85. No this is not on a zook and yes the car is setup to be running it eg 1000cc injectors big pump etc etc. Spoken to tuner and he says it allows it to come on boost earlier, better emissions, and more power. Can't be to bad if alot of guys are choosing this over other race fuels. |
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| Author: | 303zuke [ Wed May 19, 2010 2:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
ball wrote: eldo wrote: my little beast has been pinging of late on caltex pulp, got a sneaky feeling that its an E10 fuel without them telling us Anything with more than 1% ethanol in it is supposed to have the bowser labeled. It is against the law for them to just dump that crap in the ground. Not quite true. Since 2003, ANY petrol sold in Australia wether ULP, PULP, or LRP/Opal is allowed under the Federal Standard for petrol to have an amount of up to 10% Ethanol and still legally be called petrol. Some brands and grades have nil, while other may have up to the full 10%. They are not required to differentiate it under Federal law.. However, various States have, under Fair Trading laws, decreed that it should be advertised to inform the customer when a set proportion is exceeded. In NSW, as the concentration of Ethanol can be anywhere between 0% and 10% from the refinery, it must be advertised as "may contain Ethanol". In fact, NSW is actively encouraging the uptake of Ethanol blended fuel by mandating it's use. Since Oct 2007, there has been a sliding scale of Ethanol in petrol sold in NSW, starting at 2%, then 4% and now 6%. In March 2011 it will be mandatory for all petrol (ULP, PULP, and LRP/Opal) to contain 10% Ethanol. Ethanol is not really the problem it is made out to be. It is not corrosive, although it is "hydroscopic" meaning it will absorb water. This can lead to oxidation of fuel system components such as steel fuel pipes or alloy carb bowls. Ethanol can also be a solvent to some natural rubber components in the fuel system, although most newer vehicles will have hoses, diaphragms, etc made from semi-synthetic rubbers that are safe. This will also apply to fuel bowsers, which will require synthetic or Viton components to be suitable for use with Ethanol blended fuels. |
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| Author: | ball [ Wed May 19, 2010 2:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
303zuke wrote: ball wrote: eldo wrote: my little beast has been pinging of late on caltex pulp, got a sneaky feeling that its an E10 fuel without them telling us Anything with more than 1% ethanol in it is supposed to have the bowser labeled. It is against the law for them to just dump that crap in the ground. Not quite true. Since 2003, ANY petrol sold in Australia wether ULP, PULP, or LRP/Opal is allowed under the Federal Standard for petrol to have an amount of up to 10% Ethanol and still legally be called petrol. Some brands and grades have nil, while other may have up to the full 10%. They are not required to differentiate it under Federal law.. However, various States have, under Fair Trading laws, decreed that it should be advertised to inform the customer when a set proportion is exceeded. In NSW, as the concentration of Ethanol can be anywhere between 0% and 10% from the refinery, it must be advertised as "may contain Ethanol". In fact, NSW is actively encouraging the uptake of Ethanol blended fuel by mandating it's use. Since Oct 2007, there has been a sliding scale of Ethanol in petrol sold in NSW, starting at 2%, then 4% and now 6%. In March 2011 it will be mandatory for all petrol (ULP, PULP, and LRP/Opal) to contain 10% Ethanol. Ethanol is not really the problem it is made out to be. It is not corrosive, although it is "hydroscopic" meaning it will absorb water. This can lead to oxidation of fuel system components. Ethanol can also be a solvent to some natural rubber components in the fuel system, although vehicles will have hoses, diaphragms, etc made from semi-synthetic rubbers that are safe. This will also apply to fuel bowsers, which will require synthetic or Viton components to be suitable for use with Ethanol blended fuels. Try again, I never said it wasn't called petrol, just that it had to be labeled. I have read the NSW legislation and unless they have had an update in the last month or so, PULP is exempt from the ethanol requirement at this stage and there is nothing written in there that says it will be changing in 2011. The other common misconception about the NSW compulsory ethanol rule is that the percentages they mandate is at the bowser. It is for total volume of fuel sales from the refinery. The guy I spoke too 5 or 6 weeks ago in Canberra from the environmental department responsible for the fuel standards, advised me that anything over 1% is required by law to state that it contains ethanol. He said up to 1% is permitted to allow for cross contamination. |
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| Author: | Gwagensteve [ Wed May 19, 2010 10:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
royce wrote: OK if its so corrosive, why did I just sell Caltex a metric fuckload of pipe and fittings for their Ethanol terminal that exactly 0% of it is stainless? this isnt a company that takes risks in these situations
and be fucked if Bosch tunes anyones engines, like a car company is going to farm that out It's particularly corrosive to aluminium, and it's hydroscopic. Stainless fuel rails are the first modification on e85 and flex fuel engines. You'd be surprised how much tuning Bosch do. (Obviously, because you assume they do none) If the car has Bosch efi, it will have been tuned by Bosch. Bosch in Clayton do lots of OEM development, including lots of direct injection work. Of course the hours I spent there going through this stuff with their lead technical trainers was all a delusion and they were lying to me. Lucky some guy on the Internet is here to tell me that they were lying though. |
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| Author: | SuziBlu [ Wed May 19, 2010 10:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
I always thought that alcohol was not corrosive, but when used in combustion, because its hydroscopic, and most all cars have water in the system, it forms Formic Acid, and it is the Formic Acid that does the damage, not the alcohol. Have a nice clean fuel system, and no dramas. The rubber seals n such, stupid to argue about something so tiny. |
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| Author: | zukmeista [ Thu May 20, 2010 6:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
Gwagensteve wrote: royce wrote: OK if its so corrosive, why did I just sell Caltex a metric fuckload of pipe and fittings for their Ethanol terminal that exactly 0% of it is stainless? this isnt a company that takes risks in these situations and be fucked if Bosch tunes anyones engines, like a car company is going to farm that out It's particularly corrosive to aluminium, and it's hydroscopic. Stainless fuel rails are the first modification on e85 and flex fuel engines. You'd be surprised how much tuning Bosch do. (Obviously, because you assume they do none) If the car has Bosch efi, it will have been tuned by Bosch. Bosch in Clayton do lots of OEM development, including lots of direct injection work. Of course the hours I spent there going through this stuff with their lead technical trainers was all a delusion and they were lying to me. Lucky some guy on the Internet is here to tell me that they were lying though.   
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| Author: | Gwagensteve [ Thu May 20, 2010 7:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
SuziBlu wrote: I always thought that alcohol was not corrosive, but when used in combustion, because its hydroscopic, and most all cars have water in the system, it forms Formic Acid, and it is the Formic Acid that does the damage, not the alcohol. Have a nice clean fuel system, and no dramas. The rubber seals n such, stupid to argue about something so tiny. Here's the detail of why ethanol is corrosive and damaging to polymers. In short, it strips the oxide layer that acts as a corrosion inhibitor, and this is especially true for aluminium. Quote: Methanol and ethanol contain soluble and insoluble contaminants [3]. Halide ions, which are soluble contaminants, such as chloride ions, have a large effect on the corrosivity of alcohol fuels. Halide ions increase corrosion in two ways: they chemically attack passivating oxide films on several metals causing pitting corrosion, and they increase the conductivity of the fuel. Increased electrical conductivity promotes electrical, galvanic and ordinary corrosion in the fuel system. Soluble contaminants such as aluminum hydroxide, itself a product of corrosion by halide ions, clogs the fuel system over time. To prevent corrosion the fuel system must be made of suitable materials, electrical wires must be properly insulated and the fuel level sensor must be of pulse and hold type (or similar). In addition, high quality alcohol should have a low concentration of contaminants and have a suitable corrosion inhibitor added.
Methanol and ethanol are also incompatible with some polymers. The alcohol is solved by the polymers causing swelling, and over time the oxygen breaks down the carbon-carbon bonds in the polymer causing a reduction in tensile strength. For the past few decades though, most cars have been designed to tolerate up to 10% ethanol (E10) without problem. This include both fuel system compatibility and lambda compensation[clarification needed] of fuel delivery with fuel injection engines featuring closed loop lambda control. In some engines ethanol may degrade some compositions of plastic or rubber fuel delivery components designed for conventional petrol, and also be unable to lambda compensate the fuel properly.[citation needed] "FlexFuel" vehicles have upgraded fuel system and engine components which are designed for long life using E85 or M85, and the ECU can adapt to any fuel blend between gasoline and E85 or M85. Typical upgrades include modifications to: fuel tanks, fuel tank electrical wiring, fuel pumps, fuel filters, fuel lines, filler tubes, fuel level sensors, fuel injectors, seals, fuel rails, fuel pressure regulators, valve seats and inlet valves. The cost of this E85 upgrade to a modern engine is inexpensive and is less than $100[citation needed]. "Total Flex" Autos destined for the Brazilian market can use E100 (100% Ethanol). One liter of ethanol contain 21.1 MJ, a liter of methanol 15.8 MJ and a liter of gasoline approximately 32.6 MJ. In other words, for the same energy content as one liter or one gallon of gasoline, one needs 1.6 liters/gallons of ethanol and 2.1 liters/gallons of methanol. Although actual fuel consumption doesn't increase as much as energy content numbers indicate. Just to recap, E85 has improved octane but reduced thermal efficiency compared to petrol. Whilst use of various mixes of ethanol will produce hybrid results, the more ethanol you add the worse you fuel consumption will be. In a properly tuned car (that is, properly tuned or E85, not petrol) there might be a cost saving to run E85, but in a homespun conversion it's not going to happen. The real key is the car's lambda sensors learning what fuel is in the car and tuning to suit. Carbies aren't terriby good at that, so whilst an approriately high compression, ignition advanced car could be set up, it would have just terrible fuel economy. not quite as bad as 100% methanol, but still pretty bad. It's not going to be a money saver. Steve. |
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| Author: | ando_zook94 [ Thu May 20, 2010 7:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
I use to work for Caltex and they have advised that are phasing out ULP, whilst woolworths are changong there pumps t0 get rid of Vortex. I run my Commodore and the Zook on Vortex and they run really well with an increase in Klm/Lt. |
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| Author: | Gwagensteve [ Thu May 20, 2010 8:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
ando_zook94 wrote: I use to work for Caltex and they have advised that are phasing out ULP, whilst woolworths are changong there pumps t0 get rid of Vortex.
Can you have another go at that so I can understand it? Caltex are phasing out Unleaded petrol and replacing it with - what? E10? Woolworths are phasing out 98 octane pulp or getting rid of Vortex Is this Brisbane only or australia wide? I ask this because Mobil were planning to sell all their servos in melbourne to Caltex (and Mobil were removing the Mobil specific branding from their pumps) until the ACCC scuttled it. I tend only to run Mobil or Shell 98. Occasionally BP. All my modern cars have been cheaper to run on 98 than lower octane. My 660 turbo sierra thrives on 98 and isn't even happy on 95. Steve. |
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| Author: | mcwilly [ Thu May 20, 2010 2:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
Basically if setup up properly to run e85 theRe shouldn't be a prob but would be better with efi |
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| Author: | MacDaddy [ Sat May 22, 2010 4:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
I would use Ethanol 5 or maybe 10% mix, as i have been putting Ethanol, in the form of Metho, in my tank since i have owned my first Zook back in the 80's, but unless the engine was designed to run on a higher mix of Ethanol, or they can guarantee my engine will be ok, i wouldnt use anything higher than 10% mix max !  
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| Author: | lizzard [ Sat May 22, 2010 8:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
Its only good for lighting camp fires |
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| Author: | whincup [ Sat May 22, 2010 12:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: E85 Fuel |
i had to run 2 tanks of premium, first having an extra strong dose of injector/carby cleaner just to get mine running properly again after E10. im told it dries out the seals anyway, so even in a car properly set up for it you should run at least one tank of regular unleaded between every 3rd or 4th tank of E10. |
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