[OziIan]

G'day all. New to forum.
Quick background: Have a Vit 99 XLS for trailering behind a motorhome. Basically 'standard' except for extractor exhaust replacement. Used mostly as a commuter, and rest for forestry trails, etc. No serious axle breaking stuff for me!

Trying to find this ZA posting which showed up via a Google search for "cracked block suzuki engine" ... something similar to what I have been fearing.

"Recently had my engine rebuilt and is installed and running well. .... Im trying to move away from the cracked block theory, I don't like that...but ..."

and haven't been able to find any more of it, even though I searched through all Aug 2011 discussion headings. If anyone more knowledgeable than me can help find it, a link would be appreciated.


My problems:
Original G16A engine was 'rattling' and leaking oil from front crankshaft @ 200,000km. Bit the bullet and went for a re-build. Block was cracked between 1&2 main.
Bought a G16B short and had that re-furbished and married to original tested and refurbished head, etc. Engine was 'sweet', and performed well. Oil and fuel consumption was excellent.

After about a year/11,000 km the original 'rattling' noise returned (to ME it is a bearing noise). Performance, fuel and oil usage remained same, however.

In Tanmsnia this rebuilt engine carked it big-time with water and oil well intermixed, although performance didn't appear to have suffered. I immediately thought "cracked block" and had the (out of warranty) engine replaced.

The next engine (supposedly a rebuilt G16A) was similarly 'sweet' but only for about 300km, and quite suddenly (say within 2-5km) the old familiar 'bearing rattle' returned. I am currently at about 10,000 km from rebuild, the 'noise' is worse particularly when cold and with mild acceleration and now has a visible flow of oil from the vicinity of the front crank seal.
I'm trying to get the engine brought back to its 'as new' status. Unfortunately, I'm in rural Victoria, and mechanic is in Hobart. He is working with a local colleague to try to sort it all out, but we're really dancing around the main problem of the sudden appearance of a noticeable engine 'noise'.

Checked the obvious like exhaust leaks, tappets. Oil pressure is >60psi when cold and idling, but drops to about 12 psi when hot (about 15km at 3500 rpm/100kph) and idling. Not what I'd have expected, but it apparently has 10W50 full synth oil in it, and I'm not familiar with this newer oil type. Engine temp is a pretty constant 80 deg C measured on thermostat housing.

SO ...

My question is ... What are the chances of having THREE engines (one original and two rebuilds) with three identical noises? I'm thinking there MUST be something the rebuilders are doing wrong or skimping on.

This is driving me crazy - not knowing what is going on. Any suggestions from you REAL zook owners will be appreciated.

I know the above information is pretty brief, so please let me know what more specific information you may want to help form a diagnosis and therefore a possible help for me.

Thanks in advance for any help & regards,
Ian

[buzbox]

not sure if it would make much of a difference, but did you have the head machined. Could there be a possibility that the head is warped?

The only other thing I can think of is perhaps an oil gallery hadn't been cleaned out or is blocked.

[want33s]

G series engines do sometimes crack across main journals between cylinders but the chances of having three in a row are so slim I wouldn't entertain the thought.
Were any parts reused on all 3?

[royce]

was the flywheel and or front pulley reused?

[OziIan]

Thanks for thoughts, guys.

buzbox wrote:

not sure if it would make much of a difference, but did you have the head machined. Could there be a possibility that the head is warped?

On the first engine I have been assured that yes it was definitely machined. After the water/oil mix and subsequent overheating it was reported from the Hobart recon man that it was warped. This is perfectly understandable.
The Hobart engine was already rebuilt before I saw it, so I don't know.

buzbox wrote:

The only other thing I can think of is perhaps an oil gallery hadn't been cleaned out or is blocked.

Yes - that has been one of my thoughts, as it fits in with what I am seeing. But both Recon engines?
I was thinking about the possibility of the parts these guys use and if not OEM whether gaskets or sealant goo is partially restricting oil flow.

royce wrote:

was the flywheel and or front pulley reused?

AFAIK on the first re-build, yes. full clutch machine and rebuild. Definitely all the external bits were transferred to rebuilt motor. New water pump, new radiator, etc, etc.
On the Hobart rebuild, I don't know.

want33s wrote:

G series engines do sometimes crack across main journals between cylinders but the chances of having three in a row are so slim I wouldn't entertain the thought.
Were any parts reused on all 3?

From what I have been able to work out on the web, yes, G16A blocks were prone to cracking between journals. It seems this was minimised in the G16B block. Both the local mechanic and recon bloke recommended I find a G16B block, which I did. Is this how you guys see it?

I believe my original pistons were re-used on the first rebuild, as the short motor had 4 valve pistons in it.
On the Hobart rebuild, I don't know.
Both the Hobart and his local colleague (who didn't do the first rebuild) reckon the noise I'm hearing is 'piston slap'. I don't agree. If so, why did it occur relatively suddenly? Piston slap is something associated with old age, and unless a piston has collapsed its skirt, doesn't happen within a few kms. Is this correct?

Gotta go. SWMBO has announced dins! I'm sure you'll understand.
Thanks again for your thoughts.
Regards, Ian.

Edited 24/3 2042 corrected typos.

[want33s]

Piston slap is an old age disease not something a freshly rebuilt motor catches.

Any mechanic that fitted used pistons to a block they didn't come out of should have his torque wrench fully inserted anally.

[jdk81]

Is it possible the 2nd engine g16b with the oil and water intermixed, without noticeable performance problems was due to the head not being retorqued?

EDIT: have you checked other things for the noise?
Still makes you think they reused stuff.

[OziIan]

want33s wrote:

Piston slap is an old age disease not something a freshly rebuilt motor catches.

Any mechanic that fitted used pistons to a block they didn't come out of should have his torque wrench fully inserted anally.

OUCH!!! ... and with grease on the handle so he can't get it out? Ummmm ... that's putting it bluntly! ... but I do now understand why you say that.
There is a lot I don't know because I trusted the people involved. Hence I can't say either way if the re-con people machined out cylinder bores to suit my pistons fitted new pistons or whatever.
All I know for sure is the 16B block had 4-valve pistons, and my existing head was 2 valve. The invoice wasn't explicit enough to show if they had bought new pistons, and I assumed the original pistons had been used. I could well be wrong.

Surprisingly, I hadn't thought of that aspect. The original G16A block which I photographed had numbers & letters stamped on the sumpcase flange and numbers stamped on the top of the block. Underneath and on top was 1211 and underneath also had BBBBB which I assumed were codes for crank and big-end bearing sizes. Maybe the 1211 were PISTON sizes?

jdk81 wrote:

Is it possible the 2nd engine g16b with the oil and water intermixed, without noticeable performance problems was due to the head not being retorqued?

It is always possible, of course, and I've already asked that question. Both mechanics who did the actual re-fitting of the bits after reconditioning have said something similar to this: [It seems] these Suzi head bolts are tensioned by the amount of 'twist' given after reaching a certain torque figure, thereby holding the head down by 'spring tension' rather than brute force. This is common in a lot of modern cars, apparently. It is always possible it wasn't done properly in the first place, and I wasn't there while the process happened, so I really have to rely on the reputation of the mechanic.
BTW - I noticed in my local tool shop there are now torque wrenches specifically for this purpose with digital ANGLE measurement after reaching a digitally set tightening torque. Fancy, huh?

So to answer the question - BOTH the local rebuilder and the Hobart rebuilder said that re-torquing the head wasn't necessary and in fact, I could believe it would be wrong to try. If you guys know otherwise, please point me in the direction of something reliable I can print and use in my 'discussions' with the mechanics. BTW both had used flushing oil which was replaced at 1000km and both said they set/checked tappet clearances at that time.

The 16B engine was stripped down without me being there (and I was really pissed off about that). They blamed the original mechanic for not putting in all the cam-shaft bolts and claimed there were head bolts missing. IMHO this is utter bullshit. No reputable and highly regarded mechanic who has been in business in a small regional town for over thirty years would get away with that! Statements like that tell me the Hobart re-con man cannot be trusted with anything he says.

Again, thanks to you all for your input. Some of you have mirrored my thinking and that tells me I am not out on a limb. Others have given food for thought - and I appreciate that.

It's the old story - if you want it done properly you simply have to do it yourself. That way you can only argue with yourself if it doesn't work. In my case I'd lose both sides of the argument!

Any comments about the synthetic oil viscosity range (10W50) in an older-design engine? Too thick? Too thin? Would a better range (ie 20W40) be more suitable? Not that it will solve the bearing noise. BTW it has been said that using a higher octane fuel may solve the 'engine clunk' problem. Really? I hope they were kidding!

Once again, thanks guys. Looking forward to some more thoughts.
Regards, Ian.

[jdk81]

What I meant was some headgaskets have to be torqued up twice.
Theres multiple brands of headgaskets, many headgaskets need to be torqued, then retorqued a little later.
Failure to that can cause a little loss of coolant and/or mixing of coolant and oil etc, but no noticeable loss in power. (it may only leak at/near maximum pressure).
Retorqueing heads is not just a suzuki thing.

Oil grade looks fine.

Higher octane may solve if the engine is knocking (pre-ignition), but if its a bottom end, it will make those noises anyway.

Do you have an itemised receipt breaking down what they are supposed to have installed and work done for each rebuild?

The g16b, any idea what it was from? Perhaps it was from a coil pack baleno, could explain why a rebuild guy may reuse the crank off the original g16a.
But then still cant explain why the new g16a had the same issues straight away.

Also what royce said, the flywheel/front pulleys. If theres an issue there (unbalanced for some reason) I guess it could cause the crankshaft to do funny things.

Did you get your carby rebuilt?

What a night mare.

[want33s]

15W-40 would be my minimum. Mineral not synthetic unless you have too much money.
10W-50 could be a problem but I'd have to see main & big end bearing shells to be sure.


RE: Torque head bolts.
Some head bolts are tensioned in 3 stages. EG: 30, 45, 60ft/lb. These are reuseable... G13 G16A & B.
Head bolts that are tensioned to EG:40ft/lb plus a quarter turn (90*) are not reuseable.

[OziIan]

OK. Thanks guys.

jdk81 wrote:

What I meant was some headgaskets have to be torqued up twice. Theres multiple brands of headgaskets, many headgaskets need to be torqued, then retorqued a little later. OK - I know that is how it used to be back in the days when I did a rebuild of a sidy Morris Minor. No, SERIOUSLY - I go back that far. Also later head jobs on other vehicles etc. BUT ... back in those days there was no such thing as springy head bolts so re-torquing was mandatory
Failure to that can cause a little loss of coolant and/or mixing of coolant and oil etc, but no noticeable loss in power. (it may only leak at/near maximum pressure). Retorqueing heads is not just a suzuki thing. Ummmm ... yes I understand that - but I had the impression that Suzis only used the springy head bolts, making re-torquing un-necessary irrespective of gasket type. I'll have to ask what type of head bolts were used.
Oil grade looks fine. OK - ta for that.
Higher octane may solve if the engine is knocking (pre-ignition), but if its a bottom end, it will make those noises anyway. Agree. That's ANOTHER bit of misinformation from the Hobart man.
Do you have an itemised receipt breaking down what they are supposed to have installed and work done for each rebuild? No - again, that was part of the trust thing, particularly locally. I have asked the re-condit man here al sorts of questions, and allowing it is now well over two years, exact details have been lost. He looked up records and they only show something like" Suzuki reconditioning kit" and were non-OEM
The g16b, any idea what it was from? Perhaps it was from a coil pack baleno, could explain why a rebuild guy may reuse the crank off the original g16a. But then still cant explain why the new g16a had the same issues straight away. I may not have explained that correctly. The 16B block came complete with crank, pistons, virtually everything but the head and hangers on (alt, water pump, flywheel, etc) I call this a 'short' motor. Did I get that wrong? I don't know what it was from. I was, however offered a full Baleno motor - guaranteed to start & run when I got there. Should have taken that, in hind-sight.
My understanding is that the short motor was stripped and with the old pistons (maybe - see previously) new rings bearings fitted returned to my mechanic "re-built" along with a fully ground head and valve job.
Also what royce said, the flywheel/front pulleys. If theres an issue there (unbalanced for some reason) I guess it could cause the crankshaft to do funny things. I understand and agree. Before the noise occurred (both times), however, the engine was very 'sweet'. I assume you know what I mean - it's hard to describe. Like a well-oiled clock - it just SOUNDED right - no misfiring, no unusual noises, spun out to 4k rpm smoothly, no vibration, etc etc. There is an exhaust resonance at about 3-4k rpm, and this is as it should be if the extractors have been tuned for 100 kph. Yes?
Did you get your carby rebuilt? Carby had been fully re-built ... some years ago ... and wasn't giving grief at that time. It now has a suspected blocked accelerator jet which I'll have to look into. However, carbies usually don't make 'clunking noises' AFAIK. But I take your point - we are looking for something common - and inlet and exhaust manifold is common to all three engines.
What a night mare. We agree on THAT! I'll work through it, though, and the input from you blokes has been great.

want33s wrote:

15W-40 would be my minimum. Mineral not synthetic unless you have too much money. The motorhome (on Merc 616 chassis) uses ONLY synth diesel oils and 30,000km between changes. I have used synth in vehicles before and only do change and filter at 10,000km intervals, which makes synth more cost effective. So I don't have a problem with synth as such, but was wondering if the 10 part (as I understand it is the thinest part of the range when hot?) is too thin or the 50 part was too thick when cold. In Suzi even at 10,000km the oil is just a slight shade of brown, which is, to me, an indicator top end is in excellent shape.
10W-50 could be a problem but I'd have to see main & big end bearing shells to be sure. Ok ... could you explain why, please, out of curiosity?
RE: Torque head bolts. Some head bolts are tensioned in 3 stages. EG: 30, 45, 60ft/lb. These are reuseable... G13 G16A & B. Yes - that's how I understand it, too. However, just on principle I have never re-used head bolts. New bolts are dirt cheap compared with a warped head and all the work involved.
Head bolts that are tensioned to EG:40ft/lb plus a quarter turn (90*) are not reuseable. Yes, that's basically what both mechanics have told me, and I believe that's what were used.

I think we agree there has been something major which caused the 16B motor to fail. But we will never know what the failure process was, particularly given the mis-info from the Hobart people.

It is the second (16A) engine I have to deal with, and I know nothing about its history, other than it was already supposedly 'reconditioned' when the Hobart mechanic rang around to find another motor. My understanding was that it was a 'swap and go' job - about a week, from memory.

All I know for sure is that it rapidly developed a 'clunk' (worse when cold) and there is now an oil leak in the area of the front crank pulley.
There is no water/oil intermix. There is no water usage. I have not added oil in 10,000km (although now nearing low oil mark). Fuel economy remains at the long-term average of just over 8 litres/100. Performance is as good as I would expect. As I said above, no probs with the top end.

If I was a betting man I'd go for the front main journal split (cracked block) or bearing slipped blocking oil feed. These are the only two things I can think of that can cause the sudden change I detected in engine sound. A wobbling crank would make oil sealing difficult - hence leakage.

I have wondered also if these recon blokes use a particularly thick grease when re-fitting cranks and pistons, and this was flushed out eventually by the (hot) oil at around 200kms. Doesn't explain how the 16B engine lasted to about 10,000km before becoming noisy, though.

In my more paranoid moments I have wondered if the latest 16A engine was lifted out of a wrecked Suzi, cleaned, and put straight into mine. Logically, I doubt it though.

Again, thanks for for being a sounding board for my probs and for all your feedback. Is appreciated.
Regards, Ian.

[want33s]

OziIan wrote:

want33s wrote:

15W-40 would be my minimum. Mineral not synthetic unless you have too much money. The motorhome (on Merc 616 chassis) uses ONLY synth diesel oils and 30,000km between changes. I have used synth in vehicles before and only do change and filter at 10,000km intervals, which makes synth more cost effective. So I don't have a problem with synth as such, but was wondering if the 10 part (as I understand it is the thinest part of the range when hot?) is too thin or the 50 part was too thick when cold. In Suzi even at 10,000km the oil is just a slight shade of brown, which is, to me, an indicator top end is in excellent shape.
10W-50 could be a problem but I'd have to see main & big end bearing shells to be sure. Ok ... could you explain why, please, out of curiosity?
RE: Torque head bolts. Some head bolts are tensioned in 3 stages. EG: 30, 45, 60ft/lb. These are reuseable... G13 G16A & B. Yes - that's how I understand it, too. However, just on principle I have never re-used head bolts. New bolts are dirt cheap compared with a warped head and all the work involved.
Head bolts that are tensioned to EG:40ft/lb plus a quarter turn (90*) are not reuseable. Yes, that's basically what both mechanics have told me, and I believe that's what were used.

30,000km between oil changes
What I was getting at was that 10W might be too thin but I'd have to see the bearing shells to confirm.
G13, G16A, G16B headbolts are all reuseable. Mechanics are ripping you off if they told you to replace them.

[jdk81]

And once again touching on the gasket retorqueing, its not overly relevant but Im trying to explain what I am talking about.

You are missing the point I was trying to raise.
Some headgasket brands require it to be torqued and torqued again a little later.
Some are single torque only.

This is not a issue from old times etc... it is current, and affects various makes and models, it is dependent on the head gasket used.
Example, from the last couple of years. 3/3 headgaskets purchased from suziworld, required to be retorqued. A head gasket for a toyota purchased from repco was the same. If you spend a bit more coin you can get the single torque gasket, I forgot the name to look for.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21476&hilit=head+gasket

[burls]

Not sure if its been said,, theres a lot to read here. Anyway if you haven't checked try the crank pulley/gear. We had one loose on an engine and it was a clunking sound, it also leaked oil around the seal cause the pulley was not running true.

[OziIan]

30,000km between oil changes Very common on euro-diesels. Even my old Sprinter van (1998) was 10,000k on mineral or 30,000k on full synth. These are Merc specs. At 300,000km it was just starting to show smoke when cold.
What I was getting at was that 10W might be too thin but I'd have to see the bearing shells to confirm. The part of my comment was why would you need to see the shells? (Or is that a trade secret?) On that advice I'll use a 20W50 next time.
G13, G16A, G16B headbolts are all reuseable. Mechanics are ripping you off if they told you to replace them. If ordinary hi-tensile bolts, yes, but didn't we decide the springy ones needed to be replaced? Both mechanics described using the springy types.

And once again touching on the gasket retorqueing, its not overly relevant but Im trying to explain what I am talking about. You are missing the point I was trying to raise. Some headgasket brands require it to be torqued and torqued again a little later. Some are single torque only. I do understand what you are saying. It seems we have 4 possible combinations of gaskets and bolts.
re-torquing gaskets; single torque gaskets; brute force bolts and twist turn springy bolts.
Using re-torque gaskets with brute force bolts = yes - DEFINITELY MUST be re-torqued.
Using single torque gaskets with brute force bolts = no re-torque.
The part I don't see is why do either gasket types with springy bolts need re-torquing? It seems to me that because of the way they work, you can't correctly re-torque the springy bolts without undoing them first, in which case logically you would have to replace them. My understanding is the correct head-to-block pressure is maintained by the torsional spring in the bolts, thus allowing compressing gaskets to compress slightly and still work. Ie, the re-torquing is built into the bolt itself.
Am I understanding this correctly?

This is not a issue from old times etc... it is current, and affects various makes and models, it is dependent on the head gasket used. Example, from the last couple of years. 3/3 headgaskets purchased from suziworld, required to be retorqued. A head gasket for a toyota purchased from repco was the same. I understand that would be the case if using brute-force bolts. The thing I need clarified here is: are you using brute force bolts or the springy ones?

If you spend a bit more coin you can get the single torque gasket, I forgot the name to look for. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21476&hilit=head+gasket
Ok on that link. Ta.

I really must ask we focus on the noises and oil leaks of the Hobart G16A engine and what could have 'failed' and why so suddenly. I think we've all run out of ideas.
What I am hearing is a 250,000km motor at just 10,000km. This is the part that is bugging me - I simply have not experienced this before. If I had done the rebuild myself, the motor would have already been carefully stripped and photographed all the way, and everything measured to .01 of a millimetre. OK ... to a thou if you like. Realistically, I can't expect a commercial organisation to do that. I'm caught between a rock and a hard place.


From "burls" Not sure if its been said,, theres a lot to read here. Anyway if you haven't checked try the crank pulley/gear. We had one loose on an engine and it was a clunking sound, it also leaked oil around the seal cause the pulley was not running true. Hasn't been mentioned. Good thought. My initial reaction is that because this noise occurs when there is slight acceleration and worse when cold, I have convinced myself it is bearings. A pulley coming loose is something that can occur suddenly, so may fit in with my observations. I will check tomorrow. From memory I should be able to get a socket onto the pulley-bolt and see. I assume they are keyed into the crankshaft.

Again, thanks to you all for your help and input.
Regards,
Ian

[OziIan]

Burls
Checked crankshaft pulley and all is tight. Bugger! Thanks for thought, though.

[want33s]

OziIan wrote:

From "burls" Not sure if its been said,, theres a lot to read here. Anyway if you haven't checked try the crank pulley/gear. We had one loose on an engine and it was a clunking sound, it also leaked oil around the seal cause the pulley was not running true. Hasn't been mentioned. Good thought.

royce wrote:

was the flywheel and or front pulley reused?

[OziIan]

royce wrote:

was the flywheel and or front pulley reused?

Sorry Royce - been tied up with BAS stuff.

I really have no way of knowing.

I'll PM you about another matter.

Cheers,
Ian

[jonno_racing]

what fuel are you running and what ign timing?
I have known Suzuki engines to knock with wrong timing/lower octane fuel.

bearing shells would need to be inspected for damage

was it rebuilt buy gorengers (sp)?

[OziIan]

G'day.

jonno_racing wrote:

what fuel are you running and what ign timing?
I have known Suzuki engines to knock with wrong timing/lower octane fuel.

90 RON and 10 DBTDC AFAIK. I'll double check timing tomorrow. I'm pretty certain it isn't pre-ignition sound though. It's a 'clunk' not a 'pink'

Quote:

bearing shells would need to be inspected for damage

I had come to same conclusion. That's expensive, particularly if it isn't bearings at fault. Currently have oil being analysed for bearing metals, etc - no results yet.
At this stage, I'm trying to get the fitter to at least get the noise positively identified. He has refused to do this, so far.

Quote:

was it rebuilt buy gorengers (sp)?

Do Tasmanians count?
I know the name of the Hobart recon and mech repair companies, but I won't say on an open forum for risk of litigation, etc, etc.




Thanks for input.
Cheers,
Ian.

[jonno_racing]

hi Ian.
10' maybe touch to much I. have had a few Suzuki motors sound like a dead big end due to timing and rubish fuel.
try running it out of fuel and running it on 98 octane and that should tell you if its a slap issue.

I know most of the engine builders in hobart there is only one I would trust, I'm guessing it didn't go to there shop as they only do itemized receipts.

was the oil at all metallic when you droped it?

[OziIan]

jonno_racing wrote:

hi Ian.
10' maybe touch to much I. have had a few Suzuki motors sound like a dead big end due to timing and rubish fuel.
try running it out of fuel and running it on 98 octane and that should tell you if its a slap issue.

I know most of the engine builders in hobart there is only one I would trust, I'm guessing it didn't go to there shop as they only do itemized receipts.

was the oil at all metallic when you droped it?

G'day again.

I lied - when I checked (as opposed to relying on memory) it was EXACTLY 8 deg. as per the manual.
OK about fuel - I'll fill up with 98 tomorrow.

Re itemised accounts. Again, I don't know - the mech who did the install MAY have an itemised receipt from the engine builder, but I wasn't given that.
The work by the mech was reasonably well itemised for the parts and oil, etc used. Would you be prepared to PM me with your trusted builder so we can compare notes?

Re oil: The sample I took (hot) has stood for over a week and I can see no signs of pieces of metal. The oil analysis results are not back yet. Note the original oil was (supposedly) changed at 1000km. The oil sample I have is from 1000km to 10,000km.
Re oil grade: someone in a previous post suggested 20W50 and that's what in engine now. Oil pressures are now approx 10psi higher when cold and when hot (typ 65-70 psi @ 2.5k rpm cold, 50-60 @ 3k hot and a healthier 20 psi at idle (800-1000 rpm) when fully hot. Doesn't make any change to 'The Noise' though.

I'd like to come back to the fact that this noise first appeared quite suddenly within 300 km of driving out of the workshop - cruising at 80 kph (much to the annoyance of others) on the highway back to Longford. Since then there has been many tanks of fuel (inc 10% ethanol, but not 98 RON) from many different sources in two states with no noticeable changes. The noise which EVERYONE agrees is there and which no-one can (or will) positively identify, has become progressively louder and now is detectable when fully hot. At idle is appears as a 'tick'.
It's the suddenness of the appearance of the noise that baffles me. I'm trying to come up with an explanation that fits with this noise happening suddenly and so soon after a 're-build' to 'as new' condition. I can't get past a) a partial oil blockage in a gallery to a bearing; b) a partially rotated slipper; or c) an incorrectly ground crankshaft bearing. In my limited experience, I would have thought piston slap wouldn't happen suddenly, unless there was failure of a piston skirt (or rings?). I'd not expect either of these to gradually get worse over a year?

It is really P****** me off!

Thanks for thoughts and input.
Cheers, Ian

[OziIan]

OziIan wrote:

Re oil: The sample I took (hot) has stood for over a week and I can see no signs of pieces of metal. The oil analysis results are not back yet. Note the original oil was (supposedly) changed at 1000km. The oil sample I have is from 1000km to 10,000km.

G'day all.

Report came back today. (Report is in .PDF format - anyone want it posted on forum?)
My comment to the oil analysis company was: Specifically checking for bearing abnormality

All metal levels were way below limit figures. B U G G E R . There goes the bearing theory ... maybe ... perhaps ...

Result summary:
* Silicon is high and may indicate dirt or gasket sealant. Check for source.
* Viscosity is low and not consistent with advised grade.
* Other results are satisfactory.
* Recommend new oil be sampled at half recommended intervals to assess and monitor condition.


Silicon high - Hmmmmmmmm ... Silicon is a chemical component of silicone rubbers = gasket sealant = pieces of silicone rubber floating around in the engine = blocked oil gallery / bearing feed / ?? Waddya reckon ???

BTW oil pressure wound off the dial this afternoon (>80psi indicated) at 2.5k rpm when cold. Isn't oil pressure normally limited by a relief valve? Might have to find another gauge to double-check.

You wise people were right on the money with the 10W50 oil being too thin. Well done!

Haven't filled with 98 RON yet. Sometime over the weekend. Report back later.

Cheers,
Ian

[OziIan]

OziIan wrote:

Haven't filled with 98 RON yet. Sometime over the weekend. Report back later.

Currently running on 95 RON with 10% ethanol (the local servo doesn't have 98) and noise continues as before.

[Reubs]

OziIan wrote:

* Silicon is high and may indicate dirt or gasket sealant. Check for source.
* Viscosity is low and not consistent with advised grade.

Silicon high - Hmmmmmmmm ... Silicon is a chemical component of silicone rubbers = gasket sealant = pieces of silicone rubber floating around in the engine = blocked oil gallery / bearing feed / ?? [color=#FF0000]Waddya reckon ???

BTW oil pressure wound off the dial this afternoon (>80psi indicated) at 2.5k rpm when cold. Isn't oil pressure normally limited by a relief valve? Might have to find another gauge to double-check.

You wise people were right on the money with the 10W50 oil being too thin. Well done!

I'm no mechanic but how's the fuel pump? I've known leaky mechanical fuel pumps to disintegrate and dump fuel into the oil via the cam gear (probably rubber (silicon?) too), thinning it out in the process. Would also explain extra noise and if it's a common part to all your engine rebuilds...

BTW, I run 15W-50 oil in all my Suzukis (G13 and G16), but thinner oil such as 10W-30 has been okay previously in the G16 Vitara.

[Moph]

OziIan wrote:

Result summary:
* Viscosity is low and not consistent with advised grade.

You wise people were right on the money with the 10W50 oil being too thin. Well done!

Sorry, only just saw this. I think you're misinterpreting the report. I presume that you advised them that the oil was 10W50 when you submitted it to them for analysis? I think they're saying that the as-tested viscosity of the oil was lower (runnier) than the 10W50 grade you advised. It probably tested closer to a 10W40 or something.

I doubt they'd be commenting on the advisable grade for your particular car. Can't imagine an analytic laboratory advising which oil grade to run in a particular engine without stripping it down, checking tolerances and testing it.

[samboy1123]

X2 on the fuel pump, assuming its mechanical the springs in them can wear like mine causing a ticking sound. Probably unlikely but worth a look.

[OziIan]

Moph wrote:

Sorry, only just saw this. I think you're misinterpreting the report. I presume that you advised them that the oil was 10W50 when you submitted it to them for analysis? I think they're saying that the as-tested viscosity of the oil was lower (runnier) than the 10W50 grade you advised. It probably tested closer to a 10W40 or something.

G'day Moph. Ahhhh ... yes. What you say makes sense, and yes, I did tell them what Brand and type, etc. Viscosity result (@100 deg C) was 12.9 whatevers and the 'normal' levels are between 16.4 to 20 whatevers - not humungeously out of range.
HOWEVER - the oil grade was what was shown on the invoice from The Hobart mob. There is no guarantee that's what was actually in the engine after the 1000km service and oil change.

Quote:

I doubt they'd be commenting on the advisable grade for your particular car. Can't imagine an analytic laboratory advising which oil grade to run in a particular engine without stripping it down, checking tolerances and testing it.

True. I had assumed that they look up a chart which says 'Suzuki recommends ??w?? grade for '89 Vitara.' DUH! Of course not!
Thanks for picking those false assumptions I made.

Reubs wrote:

I'm no mechanic but how's the fuel pump? I've known leaky mechanical fuel pumps to disintegrate and dump fuel into the oil via the cam gear (probably rubber (silicon?) too), thinning it out in the process. Would also explain extra noise and if it's a common part to all your engine rebuilds...

G'day Reubs. I was wondering how that would work in with the fact that all was well out of the workshop but not some 300km later. Oil fuel dilution is about 1/2 the limit. Won't hurt to check, though, as part of the process of elimination. A 'tomorrow' job. Thanks for input.

Quote:

BTW, I run 15W-50 oil in all my Suzukis (G13 and G16), but thinner oil such as 10W-30 has been okay previously in the G16 Vitara.

OK - maybe the use of 20W50 is a bit of a knee-jerk reaction. Since the oil change, the 20W50 oil now in the engine is giving substantially higher pressures (or the blockage or whatever has become further restricted). Typically >75psi cold and about 60 hot at 2k5rpm dropping to about 40 at idle when hot. The higher HOT pressures are maybe a worry. Shouldn't these be substantially the same as with the 10W50 (about 40 @ 2k5 rpm and about 10-15 at idle)?
HOWEVER, even with the thicker(?) cold oil, noise remains the same. (Or to my paranoid ears, is getting worse as the mornings get a little chillier!)

samboy1123 wrote:

X2 on the fuel pump, assuming its mechanical the springs in them can wear like mine causing a ticking sound. Probably unlikely but worth a look.

Thanks for that, Samboy. I'll check that, too, as best I can, when I've got the pump out.

Thanks once again guys.
Cheers, Ian

[Reubs]

So was this problem resolved?

[OziIan]

Reubs wrote:

So was this problem resolved?

G'day Reubs. Ummmmm ... got as far as running my finger under the pump and getting a drop of oil on it. Does that count?
Haven't had time to take off the air cleaner and have a good look. It doesn't sound like the noise is coming from that area (via stethoscope) but hard to tell.
What I have found is persistent new leaks - fresh just-changed engine oil - from the general area of front and rear crank seals, on the bottom of the front RHS engine mount, and under fuel pump, All these leaks, as well as the 'bearing noise (which is getting worse as the weather gets colder), add to my reckoning this engine hasn't had the professional attention I paid for. It's a lemon. Looks like litigation real soon now.

Bear with me, I'll get around to taking the cleaner off and having a good look.

Ian