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Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
https://www.auszookers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=37442		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  ChrisN [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:16 am ]
Post subject:  Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
Hi, greetings, and thanks to all for a great forum with lots on useful info.

I'm in the process of fitting a GTI Mk II into an '89 Sierra soft-top, and from the excellent thread at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=36242 I understand that to use the right-angle drive kit (which I've already bought) I need a 2-wire Vitara dizzy, which will need some mods, described as:

"- There is another option to get a Vitara dizzy (about $150 from wreckers) and modify the magnetic points by an auto-sparky for $60 if you want to run the angle drive"

and

"You will also need an auto sparky to modify the magnets for another $60."

Can anyone tell me exactly what this required modification is? I expect I'll get the 2-wire Vit dizzy but I'd like to understand the what's needed before I jump.

Thanks

Chris
Author:  masterA [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
I brought the right angle drive kit from Suzisport and the guy selling the kit told me this is the way that he has done it in the past and that it's fairly simple

I brought the Vitara dizzy from him in anticipation of doing this but i brought the car that already had the mazda 323 dizzy so never bothered to do it

I can't remember his name but it might be beneficial to give him a call and discuss it with him how to do it exactly as my memory is abit vague and i don't want to give you wrong information

http://www.suzisport.com/
Tel: 07 3205 1020
Author:  ChrisN [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
Thanks for that - I'll give Derek a call.
Author:  jimbo_jones [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
Im under the under impression that the angle drive adaptor dosent work on the mk11-111 motors and that you need to use a the gti dizzy with the mazda 323 turbo cap and rotor buton
Author:  ChrisN [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
My understanding is that the MK II and III computer needs an input from the crank angle sensor that is part of the GTI distributor. Apparently one of the Vitara distributors has this.

I hope to confirm this.
Author:  ChrisN [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
This is funny. I bought the right-angle adapter from Suzisport several weeks ago. Apparently Derek was the expert, but he's now sold the business to a gentleman named Clive. Clive has just told me that he doesn't know what the required mod involves, but hopes to ask Derek the next time he catches up with him.

It looks like the world has moved on, and all the old expertise on the Sierra GTI mods is being lost.

Can anyone give me some hints? Is it the two-wire dizzy that I need, or one of the later ones? All I know at this point is that some form of mod is required that is referred to as needing to be done by an auto-electrician. But I haven't got a clue what to ask the auto sparky to do! :oops:
Author:  tanshi [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
Give graham at suziauto in springwood QLD a call.
Author:  masterA [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
Sorry ChrisN....not 100% sure how to respond to your question as it was long time ago when i spoke to Derek about it

I originally had 2 engines....a MK1 and a MK3
I planned to put a MK3 into my tintop and i even brought the vitara dizzy in anticipation of doing the mod but decided to use the MK1 engine in the end and didn't need to do this
I was originally going to run an aftermarket computer and a SR20 throttle body with the MK3 but decided against that primarly due to costs.

Sorry i can't be much more help but i know it's been done with a Toyota dizzy also (have a read on below link)
http://www.redlinegti.com/forum/viewtop ... yota+dizzy

If anything, you may be able to ask a question on the forum to see what points etc need to be modified and if anyone has done it there

Another good website that could shed more light is
http://www.teamswift.net/

Good luck
Author:  JrZook [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
How many trigger teeth are inside your mk2 dizzy? 12 oddly spaced ones or 4 evenly spaced? Alternately if you can post a pic up showing the insides of your dizzy
Author:  ChrisN [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
Thanks Tanshi - I'll try that too.

Thanks for the response masterA - I understand the problem with things that happened some time ago - some days I'm having trouble remembering where I'm up to with this whole project! OldTimers Disease! Do you still have the Vit dizzy? If I could get my hands on one I could probably work out what's needed, but I'm nervous about throwing another $200 to Suzisport without understanding what else is needed. And thanks for those links - more grist for the mill. :)

And JrZook - Yes it has the 12 odd spaced trigger teeth - I think that is the crank angle sensor (CAS).
Author:  JrZook [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
Well then it sounds like you need the 2-wire vit dizzy for the housing and variable reluctance sensor and you need to graft the 12 tooth trigger wheel onto that dizzy shaft and space the VR sensor accordingly.
Author:  ChrisN [ Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
So the Vit 2-wire does not have a crank angle sensor output for the computer?
Author:  JrZook [ Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
It has the sensor but only has a 4 tooth trigger wheel on it
Author:  ChrisN [ Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
Ah - thank you. I'm starting to get a clearer picture. I'd love to see a good pic of the 2-wire Vitara dizzy.

What about after-market ECU? In the original thread by masterA that consolidates a lot of this information, there's a reference "- You can run the angle drive kit on the MK2/3 but you will then need to run an aftermarket computer as MK2/3 engines run spark and fuel (while MK1 only run fuel)". Presumably that means an ECU that lets the original Sierra distributor control the ignitional advance (vacuum and mechanical).

Has anyone done this? Any advantages to going this route? What's involved?

I could cope more easily with the old simple ignition systems, even the one on my Suzi GT750, that had three sets of points - one for each cylinder - that had to be gapped and timed individually to get all three cylinders working together smoothly! Thanks again!
Author:  JrZook [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
Unless the angle drive physically doesn't fit the mk2/3 then again the only change required to run the mk2/3 comp would be to get the triggering right which would involve getting that 12 tooth wheel grafted on. I'm sure this is quite possible and should save a lot of money and time over going an aftermarket ECU.
Author:  ChrisN [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
Thanks again. Yes - I suspect an aftermarket ECU would be expensive. Am I understanding this right - that the alignment of the 12-tooth trigger on the shaft is critical - if that's sending the crank angle to the ECU then it has to be in precisely the right time in terms of pistons at TDC on the correct stroke? The angle drive kit fits onto the twin-cam head ok, and accepts the Sierra distributor OK, and presumably the Vit dizzy too. The pic shows the adapter with the drive dog (from the GTI dizzy) on the shaft and with the drive gear (from the Sierra camshaft) pressed on. The alignment of the drive gear isn't critical because of the range of adjustment in the dizzy initial timing setting by rotating the dizzy in its mount.

Image Image

Image
Author:  JrZook [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
If the dizzy is fixed ie no adjustment then the alignment of the trigger wheel is critical as the only adjustment will be by dizzy drive gear teeth (pretty course). If the dizzy has adjust-ability then you just need to position the trigger wheel roughly in position.
Author:  ChrisN [ Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
Hmmmm. But the trigger wheel and the rotor button are both fixed to the same rotating shaft. I need them both to be in the right place at the right time. When I adjust the position of the distributor body I'm moving the timing of the spark as well as the crank angle sensor that tells the computer when to inject fuel and when to fire the spark. I can't adjust these independently. Or am I misunderstanding something here?
Author:  JrZook [ Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
Sorry you are correct, I misread, thought you were just talking about the alignment of the trigger wheel to the shaft. If you have or can find a pic of the stock mk2/3 dizzy setup from above it should be able to give you a rough idea as to where to position the rotor button in respect to a set of 3 teeth. I believe all 4 sets of 3 teeth have equal spacing hence it shouldn't be critical as to which set you line the rotor up with.
Author:  masterA [ Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
I've got the image but it won't let me post it....send me a PM with your email and i'll send it to you
Author:  JrZook [ Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
Well according to the diagram from masterA it seems that the flat of the dizzy shaft for the rotor position is directly in between 2 sets of teeth.
Author:  ChrisN [ Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
Thanks for that - Yep I can see it's similar in the GTI dizzy.

Speaking of which I found this pic in masterA's thread. GTI distributor on the right-angle adapter. Now I know the GTI distributor would need to be seriously modified to allow this. I wonder if someone got this working, or was the dizzy just pushed into the adapter for the photo?

Image
Author:  jonno_racing [ Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
I'd say that's just sat in. I spent ages looking into this. became more work than it was worth.
Author:  masterA [ Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
From memory, there was a guy on Outers forum that cut the shaft and re-welded it but it's abit of work to get it correct and to get the correct tolerances
Author:  ChrisN [ Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
Thanks again, and for the email.

Somebody put a bit of work into it. The GTI dizzy on the left has a 30mm shaft diameter (below the O-ring) while the Sierra dizzy is 27mm. I think there's enough meat in the right-angle housing to take the bore out to 30mm, which would just leave the other problems ... :) I have a mate with a lathe, mill etc and will talk to him about it.

Attachment:
Dizzies.jpg


In the meantime I'm playing with plumbing for the cooling system and the air intake. Got my extractors this week too. Small wins count!
Author:  shep [ Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
What about putting the dizzy on the front like mine

Image
Author:  ChrisN [ Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
Now that is impressive! Has this been covered in more detail elsewhere? I'd love to learn more about it. Source for the small pulleys? Toothed belt? And that mounting bracket - from this angle it looks like a fork; open on the right side? How does it allow for adjusting the initial timing setting as well as allowing you to get the correct tension on the belt?
Author:  jonno_racing [ Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
shep wrote:
What about putting the dizzy on the front like mine

Image


I can see that causing problems.
the Mazda cap works well tho.

here is a kit setup for a 20V 4age.
the tooth setup would make it much easyer to tune and make it more reliable
[www.interq.or.jp/world/satoru-w/desubi1.JPG
Author:  ChrisN [ Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
jonno_racing wrote:

I can see that causing problems.
the Mazda cap works well tho.

here is a kit setup for a 20V 4age.
the tooth setup would make it much easyer to tune and make it more reliable
[www.interq.or.jp/world/satoru-w/desubi1.JPG



Found the pic of Shep's dizzy after browsing 39 pages of the "Shep's Sierra" thread. Enjoyed the trip!

The Mazda cap - yes it might come down to that in the end, but I'm learning a lot along the way. :)
Author:  jonno_racing [ Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra - GTI - Vit 2-wire dizzy - magnet mods?
yeah I'm a fan. its cheep, proven and it works.
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