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Building an Exo cage.
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Author:  swifty_ano [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Building an Exo cage.
Hi yall,

I actually get holidays this Christmas. First tim in 3 years, so I think it's project time.
Seeing as an Exo cage could save my life then it should be high on my priority list. Plus, in theory it should be cheap ish ??

Im just seeking some advice on it.

What are the MUST when building a strong EXO?

What are the DONTS when building an EXO?

How many chassis points of securement should I have?

How many lengths of tube would one usually use? My guess 5?

What's the best way to secure it strongly whilst keeping it easily removeable?

If anyone has any pictures,drawings or ideas, feel free to comment.


Image
Author:  TZAR [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
Must be on the outside or its not an exo
Author:  SierraDan [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
is it for that one time roll that you simply wanna walk away from?

Or its constant panel damage frequent roll overs your thing?
Author:  swifty_ano [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
SierraDan wrote:
is it for that one time roll that you simply wanna walk away from?

Or its constant panel damage frequent roll overs your thing?


Protection from panel damage and frequent flops would be good. My main motivation behind this is to save my life.....if I can't help damage, then I can't help it.
Author:  Red89 [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
A 4 point internal will save your life and be a lot cheaper.
Exo you would be looking at closer to 10 lengths for a full comp spec one. I imagine
Author:  Fatzook [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
Red89 wrote:
A 4 point internal will save your life and be a lot cheaper.
Exo you would be looking at closer to 10 lengths for a full comp spec one. I imagine



65m of pipe in an exo? Thats gonna weigh about 300kgs!
Author:  SierraDan [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
swifty_ano wrote:
SierraDan wrote:
is it for that one time roll that you simply wanna walk away from?

Or its constant panel damage frequent roll overs your thing?


Protection from panel damage and frequent flops would be good. My main motivation behind this is to save my life.....if I can't help damage, then I can't help it.

If youre gonna be getting rock in your teeth and.pulling panels out every trip a basic yet smart/strong exo would be the go. Lots of triangulation and say at least six? mounting points.

If you just dont wanna die when you unnexpectedly roll, a 4pt internal would go better if you can keep it tight out of the way.
My gay little alloy bar in my sierra definitely saved me/more damage to my car than i expected it ever would.
Author:  Red89 [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
Fatzook wrote:
Red89 wrote:
A 4 point internal will save your life and be a lot cheaper.
Exo you would be looking at closer to 10 lengths for a full comp spec one. I imagine



65m of pipe in an exo? Thats gonna weigh about 300kgs!

So what do you plan on doing with all the offcuts that are too short to use for anything, or do you plan on tacking them all together so they are long enough to use ? Obviously you wouldnt use the full 65m :roll:
And considering he is asking the questions he is, what about all the lengths where he stuffs the bend, puts it in the wrong spot or it doesnt turn out looking like it did on paper ?
For a full comp spec exo budget for closer to 10, if you can do it with less you have come out ahead.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
swifty_ano wrote:
My main motivation behind this is to save my life.....if I can't help damage, then I can't help it.


Then you need to rethink your plan. It's no good having a cage in your car if you hit it in an accident and die of head injuries. If you want to prevent dying from a multiple rollover at speed, you need a race seat (not a $199 recliner with "shoulder support"), harnesses correctly mounted, and a motorsport helmet. In a death inducing roll over you die because you strike the inside of the car at speed- often lots of times (that's even if you stay int he car). A cage doesn't stop that, it just gives you lots of really hard, immobile things in the car to strike. You need to be retained as firmly as possible and regardless of how good the cage is or if you have one at all, if you are flying around because the seat or seatbelt broke, you slipped out of the belt, or your head hits the inside of the car you're dead regardless.

Factory cars are designed to deform in a crash and this slows the rate of deceleration your body experiences. If you think your use means that the body of the car will crush you before its deformation has had a chance to slow the rate of deceleration enough to prevent fatal injury, then you need a cage to prevent the crush injury, but you also need to remember that the rigid cell you have created now causes the mass (the car) to decelerate much quicker, which is why you need to be retained, because you're still trucking whilst the car has changed direction... which is why you start to come out of seats/belts etc.

In general, people die in multiple/fast rollovers because they are ejected from the seat/vehicle, not due to the cabin crushing in on them. In fact, it's often the opposite - they are crushed by the car as they come out of it and it lands on them.

If you want to protect the car from irreparable damage whilst driving offroad, then an exo is fine so long as it's intelligently designed. They are certainly safer to the occupants in a general accident if you are in a "normal" seat/bent and without a helmet.

I have built full internal cages and I would be VERY reluctant to have one in my own car because I'd be unwilling to commit to harnesses and a race seat in a recreational, road driven car.

Of course if you are building for a comp then you have to meet its requirements, which typically start with harnesses in any case.
Author:  Fatzook [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
Red89 wrote:
Fatzook wrote:
Red89 wrote:
A 4 point internal will save your life and be a lot cheaper.
Exo you would be looking at closer to 10 lengths for a full comp spec one. I imagine



65m of pipe in an exo? Thats gonna weigh about 300kgs!

So what do you plan on doing with all the offcuts that are too short to use for anything, or do you plan on tacking them all together so they are long enough to use ? Obviously you wouldnt use the full 65m :roll:
And considering he is asking the questions he is, what about all the lengths where he stuffs the bend, puts it in the wrong spot or it doesnt turn out looking like it did on paper ?
For a full comp spec exo budget for closer to 10, if you can do it with less you have come out ahead.



So you can't plan your cage? Using 10 lengths of tube to make a cage that should effectively use no more than 5 lengths is just crazy. I've made my fair share of tube creations, and I rarely have an offcut bigger than 300mm. Most are 50-150mm, and notching waste. You can also buy a piece of software called 'Bendtech' which will help you plan and bend you tube. Great for amatuers AND pro's.
Author:  Fatzook [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
BendTech

http://www.2020softwaresolutions.com/prod04.htm
Author:  Red89 [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
Fatzook wrote:
So you can't plan your cage? Using 10 lengths of tube to make a cage that should effectively use no more than 5 lengths is just crazy. I've made my fair share of tube creations, and I rarely have an offcut bigger than 300mm. Most are 50-150mm, and notching waste.

As far as I can tell I'm not being asked to build the cage, likewise I cant see anything stating youre building it either.
Author:  Fatzook [ Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
Red89 wrote:
Fatzook wrote:
So you can't plan your cage? Using 10 lengths of tube to make a cage that should effectively use no more than 5 lengths is just crazy. I've made my fair share of tube creations, and I rarely have an offcut bigger than 300mm. Most are 50-150mm, and notching waste.

As far as I can tell I'm not being asked to build the cage, likewise I cant see anything stating youre building it either.


Guy asked how much tube he will need. You said your piece, I said mine.
Author:  Reubs [ Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
swifty_ano wrote:
Seeing as an Exo cage could save my life then it should be high on my priority list. Plus, in theory it should be cheap ish ??
It won't be cheap. Factor $3-4K for a decent exo cage. It won't just be a cage but also supporting work wuch as sliders/rear bar/bullbar mounts as well
Im just seeking some advice on it.
PM daisy - he has built a few including mine as well as Hizooks new cage and both exos have endurerd nasty rolls/flips
How many lengths of tube would one usually use? My guess 5?
My Sierra exo was easily more than 5 lengths of tube. There will be a few bends that might need redoing and offcuts
What's the best way to secure it strongly whilst keeping it easily removeable?
Mine and Hizook's exos are bolted to sliders and rear bar and welded to bullbar.
If anyone has any pictures,drawings or ideas, feel free to comment.
IMO don't bother exo-ing a fullbodied vehicle. How do you triangulate when there are body panels in the way? You would be better off with scrub bars /flare protection - JMO.
Author:  tanshi [ Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
i personally wouldnt bother with a full exo. thats a nice exo in the pic but there really isnt any triangulation in it so a big roll is gonna crush it

build a nice, well designed internal cage. i just built one for for less that $1000 in good quality tube.

then come up with a way of building tube guards, roof sliders etc. these will allow you to layover with not too much damage to the car panels if you design them well.
Author:  Fatzook [ Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
Pics of your exo Ruebs?
Author:  swifty_ano [ Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
Considering an internal cage now. Seems a lot harder then an Exo haha
Not liking the idea of cutting holes in my floor to fully weld the joins.....must be another way.
Im thinking I'll just make front and rear brush bars + internal cage.

I thought an Exo would have been best. However, some great points have been raised.
Thanks all!
Author:  atari4x4 [ Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
i have a cams spec 4 point bolt in, no holes cut in my floor apart from the 4 bolt holes on the front hoop. rear picks up the rear seat belt bolts on the wheel arch.
Author:  Teracis [ Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
I am going to have both an internal cage (for protecting people) and an exo cage (for protecting panels) in my rig and while it may be overkill, the internal is already there, and if the exo saves the panels from one rollover on a track then it has paid for itself already (it will definitely do this in it's lifetime)

I'm going to make both removable with the internal cage using these just above where it's welded to the chassis http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/index.ph ... lamps.html
The exo will use a combination of the interlocking tube clamps and then these where it attaches to the sliders http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/index.ph ... lamps.html

It's going to be a lot of work but in the end worth it because if I NEED to remove one or both cages, I can.
Author:  KEENSY85 [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
is ur internal ally or steel cos its going to be pretty heavy if its steel with both
Author:  Fatzook [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
KEENSY85 wrote:
is ur internal ally or steel cos its going to be pretty heavy if its steel with both



Steel for both. He's got width anyway, so it'll be fine :wink:
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
Reubs wrote:
IMO don't bother exo-ing a fullbodied vehicle. How do you triangulate when there are body panels in the way? You would be better off with scrub bars /flare protection - JMO.
[/quote]

I think this is slightly missing the point. I thought about my exo this way: (I will note I'm not comping my car, and I'm also unwilling to run harnesses and race seats.)

The exo is there to protect the cab from distortion in a low speed flop/roll. My car isn't a V8 supercar and won't be endoing 5857 times down conrod straight. I fitted my exo for convenience - because it's very inconvenient to have to find a new cab if I've twisted mine up and can't refit a windscreen. Personal protection is improved, of course, but I've seen a few cars totalled from light flops when the cab distorts. I think we need to be realistic about what our cages are for.

So, I wasn't trying to build a cage to keep my panels pristine with an exo that completely enveloped the body without touching it. As you have pointed out, it's almost impossible to build a cage that's strong enough like this due to the lack of triangulation and large spans.

I am also willing to accept that I didn't have a pristine body to start with. I also didn't want to add any width to the car because then I would loose capability.

I had a think about V8 supercar and WRC cages and noted that they are normally completely welded to the pillars of the car with long gussets. This adds lots of rigidity to the body and cage, so I thought I could apply this to an exo and basically just add heaps of rigidity to the stock cab.

I've flopped onto my sort-of-exo numerous times and had it upside down once and it's been completely fine.

For a hardtop vitara, I'd be considering somehting like the cages the defender guys use -

Image

This provides A pillar protection and "flop" protection, and in the cabin there's an internal 4 point cage. This provides all the rollover protection you're likely to ever need, doesn't make the car look like a kids playground and doesn't make it lethal to be in with bars cutting in on interior room.

It would also be possible to run the cage to the rear like this for added flop protection.

Image

Yes, it will require drilling some holes in the body. If you're planning a cage, I would assume you're already driving terrain where damage is likely, so I'd rather have a few holes in the body than a totalled car from a light flop. If you're trying to prevent any damage to the car you won't be driving it anywhere you'll need a cage, exo or not.
Author:  Bruce [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
This is what I did to Casper. Internal is cams approval and did not want to pull it out to do a full exo, so I just did some (lets call them) brush bars.
It is about 30KG. Works bloody well. And I can remove it if needed.
Author:  royce [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
Bruce wrote:
This is what I did to Casper. Internal is cams approval and did not want to pull it out to do a full exo, so I just did some (lets call them) brush bars.
It is about 30KG. Works bloody well. And I can remove it if needed.


What a clever idea!
Author:  Reubs [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
Fatzook wrote:
Pics of your exo Ruebs?

See if this link works...
http://www.digitalstill.net/gallery2/gallery2embedded.php?g2_itemId=28729
Author:  Reubs [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
Gwagensteve wrote:
I've flopped onto my sort-of-exo numerous times and had it upside down once and it's been completely fine.

For a hardtop vitara, I'd be considering somehting like the cages the defender guys use -

If you're planning a cage, I would assume you're already driving terrain where damage is likely, so I'd rather have a few holes in the body than a totalled car from a light flop. If you're trying to prevent any damage to the car you won't be driving it anywhere you'll need a cage, exo or not.

Fair call Gwagen, but a Vitara body isn't very strong to start with. I still think a few scrub bars bolted the the roof would distort the body and doors in a fairly nasty way if flopped on its side in any but the most gentle fasion.

The is a Red Sierra in the Tough Tracks Modified class (Hizook - I navigate for the driver) which has backflipped/rolled/scraped and since the fitment of the latest exo-cage very little damage has occured from the latest backflips/rolls/roof landing action, so I know it is possible to design a very neat exo cage which prevents 99% of panel damage and can still be backflipped and rolled regularly. If anything, the body distorts itself every time it goes upside down or on it's side but the cage doesn't so currently the cage looks a bit skewed with less than 1" clearance cage-body on one pillar and over 2" on the other side.
Author:  Bruce [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
royce wrote:
Bruce wrote:
This is what I did to Casper. Internal is cams approval and did not want to pull it out to do a full exo, so I just did some (lets call them) brush bars.
It is about 30KG. Works bloody well. And I can remove it if needed.


What a clever idea!



It was. :peaceout: :thefinger: :wink:
Author:  Bruce [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
Yes Reubs, the cage Daisy build for Mike is a strong cage.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
Reubs wrote:
Fair call Gwagen, but a Vitara body isn't very strong to start with. I still think a few scrub bars bolted the the roof would distort the body and doors in a fairly nasty way if flopped on its side in any but the most gentle fasion.


Absolutely - but I'm not advocating "bolting some scrub bars to the roof" I'm suggesting an tight exo that is connected to the body in numerous places, and in turn, connected to an internal 4 point cage. If you think a Vitara body isn't very strong, you should have a good look at a sierra ute cab. I've seen two vitaras totalled (but the same guy!) from very low speed flops, because the turret was point loaded on a pillar or corner. Adding some bars to spread the load across the whole roof and on to the firewall/floor would do enough in most cases to stop the doors not fitting and the glass falling out, which I think is all the OP is primarily trying to avoid.

I think cage design/construction is unfairly dominated by comp rules, and it's also dominated by the idea that a cage is useless unless it protects the occupants from a high-speed, multiple rollover. I think that's a false premise because a helmet, race seat and harnesses are at least as important as a cage in the event of a high speed roll.

I don't think the OP mentioned comping their car or having to build a cage to a specific comp requirement - it struck me that they were looking for a recreational cage, which is exactly what I'm running.

Steve.
Author:  Teracis [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Building an Exo cage.
Hah Bruce that is almost exactly the plan for my exo, it's only to save the panels as stated by Gwagensteve they aren't V8 supercars doing 15 barrel rolls after high siding through a 150km/h corner!

The internal cage is the one that would save us from getting squished!
Hopefully I can keep the exo nice and light too, I don't know that it'll be as light as 30kg I'm guessing 50-60 is a more realistic target but I can't find the page for the steel supply right now to get the mass/m for what I'm going to use...
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