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The uncontrolled travel thread.
https://www.auszookers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=48808
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Author:  Gwagensteve [ Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  The uncontrolled travel thread.

There seems to be a (small) movement towards the use of drop shackles at the moment. Whilst some of us have been around long enough to remember the first time these weren't a good idea, not everyone has, and that allows them to start to look like a good idea again. They are no better an idea now than they were in the late 90's. Here's a little guide to where they came from and how they work.

What is uncontrolled travel?

Uncontrolled travel is any axle movement that’s unsprung. It’s typically a result of fitting drop shackles or long shocks that allow coil springs to go loose. It could also include Z boxes or other means of having the chassis mounted end of the leaf spring swing down away from its normal position. These are less common though.

A brief history of uncontrolled travel

Range Rover owners have been dislocating their rear springs forever. Coil sprung cars are designed for a certain amount of wheel travel and it’s difficult to get a long enough spring into the car to deal with the stroke of long shocks – the compressed length required means there’s limits on the extended length possible.

When the big flex boom happened in the US in the mid 1990’s, lots of people were trying ideas to increase apparent wheel travel. Teraflex (trading under a different name at the time) released the “Revolver” shackle. These didn’t just fold, they pivoted too. The reasoning being that spring twist is also an impediment to travel.

Image

In the late 90’s there was an explosion of different approaches to the same end, both home made and commercially available. There are also “Z boxes” which appeared around the same time and attached to the front end of the rear spring.


The theory

Obviously, wheel travel is good. Keeping the wheels in contact with the terrain means they can (potentially) drive and steer the car – after all, a wheel in the air can’t. When the spring reaches the end of its travel, rather than dangle the wheel in the air, it can fall away so the tyre stays on the ground. Longer shocks and brake lines are generally required to exploit the extra travel.

The problem

When these drop shackle equipped cars started appearing on the tracks, it became evident they didn’t perform as well as the added travel would have implied. Sure, they looked great parked on an obstacle or ramp, but on off camber terrain, or under power, or on steep descents, they were a hinderance.

Why is that exactly? Surely more travel is better than less travel?

Yep, sure is. But uncontrolled travel isn’t like normal travel. There’s no spring rate associated with the last stage of travel – It’s uncontrolled. Wheel loadings are low, but in a completely different way to a normally sprung wheel –

When a sprung wheel starts to compress, there is always spring rate forcing the wheel down. It won’t start out as very much, but it quickly increases. When a wheel with uncontrolled travel starts to compress, there’s no spring rate, the wheel is sitting basically under its own weight and the weight of ½ the axle. This isn’t very much weight, and therefore doesn’t add much traction.

Surely some traction is better than none though?

Well, maybe…. Or maybe not. Put that lightly loaded, unsprung tyre up against an obstacle and it doesn’t have enough traction to make the tyre climb the obstacle, so the car pivots around the drooped wheel. Get on the power and the drooped wheel now has no spring rate to push it onto the ground, so it can start to bounce up and down, starting a process of flapping and bouncing that’s often called “pig rooting” So while sometimes the small amount of added traction might help, it’s not making much difference to forward motion.

And then there’s the downsides. Put the car on a big compound angle and the uncontrolled travel can’t “pull” on the car to even out a side angle. The weight of the the tyre and ½ the axle isn’t a lot to add traction, but it’s a lot of ballast when it’s helping to keep the body level. Last time I had my car out, I had a shock come loose as I was heading into a side angle. The effect was like having drop shackles – the axle could fall another 4” or so, unsprung. And my car nearly fell over in a spot I’d driven easily earlier in the weekend. The body flopped over.

Image

This was ugly. Sure, I could have driven out of it, but the car didn’t need to be on this spooky angle and with less (and 100% sprung) flex the car didn’t take on the radical lean. It’s the same story when climbing.


Real world example:

Even though my car is coiled and in these photos the springs didn’t go loose at any point, I had poor side angle performance and flaky drivability. So in my last rehash on Piggles, I significantly reduced rear flex.

Here it is in “maximum hektik” mode:

Image

And here it is with reduced travel.

Image

Guess which is better to drive? – Bingo, the “reduced travel” format – the body sits more level and there’s no loss of capability. That’s because the front is being asked to work harder, as the weight of the lifted rear tyre and ½ the axle is levering on the front springs. With the rear flexing harder, the front doesn’t work as hard and so the body takes on more radical angles. Which then encourages really unequal wheel loading.

So, more travel doesn’t automatically mean more capability. It has to be the right sort of travel – sprung travel.

¾ elliptic

¾ elliptic is offered as a better alterative to drop shackles. And it is – the travel is all sprung, the effect is like having a longer, softer leaf. It’s not entirely without problems though – the car can still get up a bounce, and depending on how the ¾ leaf is setup, the car can ride on it rather than the normal springs, kind of sitting the car up and making it feel a little loose.

Could a car be built to work functionally with uncontrolled travel?

Yes. But it’s a huge, huge job, much harder than building a car with conventional travel. Here’s a primer for the curious:

Wide, heavy diffs.

Wide for stability, and heavy to provide traction.

Very narrow bumpstop spacing – the fulcrum effect.

Narrow bumpstop spacing can transfer some of the force being applied to the compressed wheel across to the drooped wheel. This effect is often overstated in relation to drop shackles. The bumpstops (and springs) really need to be a long way inboard to this to be a meaningful effect – Sierra front spring spacing, with the bumpstops under the chassis is a good guide

The axle needs to be controlled

Basically, the axle needs to be linked to prevent the bounce or hop that occurs in the range of uncontrolled motion. A leaf sprung axle with no spring rate has nothing to locate it.

Very limited compression travel.


For the compressed wheel to transfer load to the drooped wheel, it has to be on the bumpstop. No load transfer can occur until this happens. That means the car needs low roll stiffness, and to settle onto the bumpstop very quickly. This isn’t how most people want their cars set up.

For low speed crawling, it might be OK, but get on the power or try and carry some speed, and it’s not the hot ticket. Nonetheless, put all those factors together and you can achieve some incredible things. But I’ll stress, it makes the car more one dimensional than most are willing to put up with.

Image


Here’s another example of car that’s effective with uncontrolled travel, but again, it’s a pretty one dimensional car. It has almost no compression travel, and such heavy and wide diffs the unsprung weight probably goes close to exceeding sprung weight. You’ll also note in this photo the front isn’t flexing. That’s because the rear has lower roll stiffness than the front, so the front can’t work until the rear is out of travel , but at that point, the body has flopped over so far that load on the high side front wheel is negligible and can’t defeat the roll stiffness of the front suspension.

Image

So anyways, thanks for reading. I hope it’s helped to explain some of the stuff that’s going on in relation to uncontrolled travel.

Steve.

Author:  pezz [ Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

Thanks for taking the time to write this steve,




now to choose what brand wacky shackles to get

Author:  Gwagensteve [ Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

:D It doesn't matter so long as they're monster green.

Author:  DENTED [ Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

Good read.

Author:  atari4x4 [ Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

Thanks again for taking the time to put it in words, doesn't matter what the post is, it's always on point. 8)

You have a double line space after the last bold bit before Bill's landy & after the pic, pretty sure that's the only thing that someone will find wrong with the first post. I understand over 900 flexes is distracting & mistakes happen, but how are we ment to take you seriously with all those words n shit m8. Can you cut it down to cliff notes with dot points made up of 5 words or less each with a glaring spelling error in each one & then I'll like each post.

Author:  madmacca [ Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

Nice good tech ... needs more fullstops though .......... :)

Author:  alien [ Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

I think Steve had a few red wines tonight and felt like writing a novel

Good read though! =)

Author:  christover1 [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

Excellent and true words.
Well written, and not too many big words.
And a cool photo bomb by my pooches bum :)

Author:  greenzook89 [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

Gwagensteve wrote:
:D It doesn't matter so long as they're monster green.


I thought it was army green. :lol:

Well written Steve. Its just a shame that the people who believe that wacky shackles are still the go probably wont take any notice of the good tech in this thread.

Author:  Gwagensteve [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

True, but nonetheless, I kind if get the feeling there's a bit of a resurgence in interest in them.

If I had unlimited time I'd like to build a car with uncontrolled travel as an experiment, but it looks to be an epic amount of work to get right.

Author:  ChrisN [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

Like! Good to see the people with knowledge and experience sharing it - thanks.

Author:  vet 180 [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

Great article!

Well done mate.

Author:  vet 180 [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

Great article!

Well done mate.

Author:  jonno_racing [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

Good read!
What's your opinion on bump/droop ratio in a sua zook??
Or do you run with what clearance you have for bump And what the springs will allow for droop?

Author:  Gwagensteve [ Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

I would always try to set up to favour droop, maybe as high as 4:1 in favour of droop, but that depends a lot on bumpstop position and use. Because I generally set cars up on flogged OME packs (flat leaves are my preference) they tend to sit low and soft so speed work isn't their forte but the car settles onto the bumpstop quickly so maximise the stability that brings (and the fulcrum effect)

I also run bumpstops underslung the chassis on the front of any leaf car I build and I've even experimented with rear bumpstops inboard of the chassis to try and eek out some more flex.

So I guess basically we set the bumpstops where they need to be and then run just enough spring and shackle* to keep us off of them all the time.

* I say shackle length as a variable here because we can adjust spring hanger position to utilise long shackles at flat angles to maximise droop. This is not the same as throwing 2" shackles on a car for hektik lift, and normally, flat leaves with long shackles brings teh suck.

Author:  Pico42 [ Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

I have read this a few times now - the references to the fulcrum reminded me of this truck
http://www.offroadexpress.kiwi/Forums/v ... hp?t=11275

There is a third spring in the back, on top of the diff, designed to push down the drooping wheel.

Author:  Gwagensteve [ Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

If you 're referring to this

Image

Then I think one of us has misunderstood the function of that spring.

In my opinion, that spring has been fitted, along with the anti wrap bar, to allow the owner to de-rate the leaf pack more than would normally be possible.

A leaf spring not only supports the weight of the car, it locates the axle in all planes. If you want the lowest possible spring rate for the best travel, ride (and possibly traction) then it's common to remove leaves from the pack to reduce spring rate.

However, with leaves removed, you may end up with inadequate physical strength in the pack to locate the axle - springs can bend and severe axle wrap is often the outcome.
In this vehicle, my opinion is that the antiwrap bar and central coil are being used to allow the leaves to be run at a very low rate. This will predominantly be to allow the axle to compress into the bumpstop, something that's normally very difficult with a Hilux with lifted springs. (from experience - I've owned three)

In itself, I'd say it's doing very little to assist droop - far more to assist compression due to the reduced primary spring rate.

This is actually a factory idea - the 1st generation Range Rover used a Boge Hydromat self levelling unit on top of the rear diff. this allowed very soft coil springs to be used (circa 180lb/") with a 670Kg payload. The result is excellent articulation AND load carrying. However, the downside was significant body roll. Load Rover products with higher COG than the 1st gen Range Rover (Defender, discovery) didn't use the hydromat, opting for stiffer springs and ultimately antisway bars.

Steve.

Author:  riley [ Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

This thread has missed an important fact, the highest flexing Zuke In oz right now, is built for speed, as in it won aust4. that contradicts all the theory on here

Author:  tanshi [ Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

riley wrote:
This thread has missed an important fact, the highest flexing Zuke In oz right now, is built for speed, as in it won aust4. that contradicts all the theory on here


stop stiring riley.

just cos a car enters aust4 doesn't mean its fast.

Author:  riley [ Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

I didn't say it entered, I said it WON

Author:  henno [ Tue Nov 10, 2015 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

riley wrote:
I didn't say it entered, I said it WON


I'm just curious, how many other cars were in its class that time it won?

Author:  madmacca [ Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

tanshi wrote:
riley wrote:
This thread has missed an important fact, the highest flexing Zuke In oz right now, is built for speed, as in it won aust4. that contradicts all the theory on here


stop being a shit cunt riley.

just cos a car enters aust4 doesn't mean its fast.

^^ This

Author:  Gwagensteve [ Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

I won't engage twiggy in an argument, but the fact is his buggy has no uncontrolled travel at all and therefore reinforces the tech in this thread.

Author:  riley [ Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

coilovers are far worse than drop shackles for unloading on sides of hills, we control excess body roll with the rear winch on the hillbilly lj, only letting the winch totally free on the travel ramp, you guys read too much crap , you need to experience things yourself , or listen to people who have done things , not just heard about a friend of a mate.the competition world laughes at this forum.your not even close to whats really happening

Author:  Gwagensteve [ Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

This isn't a discussion of coil overs and tuning them, It's a discussion of uncontrolled travel. Your buggy has no uncontrolled travel.

Steve.

Author:  riley [ Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

obviously you didn't notice how hillbilly rolled 3 times last year at TT, till we noticed the rear was unloading on any side ways hills, we pulled the rear winch down to stop the uncontrolled travel in the rear coil overs. then for the speed events we fitted a rear swaybar. at just over 2 ton its handling is getting better as we understand how this unique suspension works

Author:  Kor3y101 [ Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

Riley; this isn't a bitchfest.

Cut it out mate.

Author:  riley [ Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

Fucking hell Gary

Author:  henno [ Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

riley wrote:
Fucking hell Gary


Ha! Exactly.

Author:  Zook_Fan [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The uncontrolled travel thread.

riley wrote:
obviously you didn't notice how hillbilly rolled 3 times last year at TT, till we noticed the rear was unloading on any side ways hills, we pulled the rear winch down to stop the uncontrolled travel in the rear coil overs. then for the speed events we fitted a rear swaybar. at just over 2 ton its handling is getting better as we understand how this unique suspension works


It's not uncontrolled travel, it just wasn't well controlled which is a huge difference. When a drop shackle starts to open it is the equivalent of the spring on your coilover going loose while the shock continues to open, that doesn't happen unless a coilover isn't even remotely set up and is not what lead to hillbilly rolling at TT. All of the travel that his car has is controlled by spring rate.

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