[The Saint of Killers]

G13BA Performance Engine, I know, bear with me here

I originally planned an engine swap, read through all the tech (thank-you for that ) sourced the parts but then my vision for the car changed and I wanted to keep the "charm" of the original.
The problem with "charm" however, is that it's costing me power and maintaining the inherent frustrations of carburation.

My mechanic is ready for the parts list.
This is what I've come up with so-far

JE Flat-Top Pistons for G13BB
JE Forged Conrods for G13BB
Recon standard Crank
RV2 272 HP Cam - although maybe you guys would suggest a Torquer 260?
ZOR My Side - Side draft Kit vs 4K Corolla Carb rejetted (really unsure here)?
Tri Y headers (brand not important at this stage but likely Doug Thorley)
2'' custom exhaust from Well Hung Exhausts
Port Matched Head - but absolute noob when it comes to what else to do with the head? - mechanic said just send it and let them figure it out
Not sure of valve train - maybe new stock rocker assembly? briefly searched Yella Terra but came up short.
New - Stock water pump
New - Stock oil pump

I've read the ignition should be up to the task however, I'd replace leads and install performance plugs.
Would Run on 98 Octane
Would also install thermo fans etc to support these mods futher.

Just to add to my life story,
I looked at adding an M45 Eaton supercharger but I don't think it will fit with the aircon I just bought.
I would increase compression if this is definitely the case.

Aiming for 100HP,

Is there anything you would suggest/change?
And I don't mean the engine entirely

[Gwagensteve]

Quite apart from anything else, are you sure BB pistons will work? They’ll likely turn the motor into an interference design but I think they’ll also make the compression ratio very low.

I’m not sure if you’re really keeping the charm of the original- if your mods are successful the engine won’t behave like your old engine with more power, it will behave like a higher performance engine, meaning the horsepower and torque peaks will move up the RPM range and closer together, like they are in a GTi motor, but you won’t have the benefit of the strength or efi of the GTi. You will need ignition upgrades too- the suzuki ignition system is inadequate for lighting off 98, which is why idle performance is poor with stock motors and 98. All up, your gearing will be incorrect and you’ll loose drivability for the gain in performance.

If you exclusively drive on road or sand maybe it will be fun, if fragile, pernickety and very very expensive.

If you want to maintain the “character” of your engine (if that means the appearance and carby performance) and end up with a better result, put your head on a G16b bottom end. Then a torquer cam will have a chance of making useful gains with the added stroke. You won’t end up with an expensive interference motor and have the best chance of a decent result.

[The Saint of Killers]

All fantastic points.

Sorry The Pistons should be suit G13BA** but I couldn't find forged rods for G13BA so I thought to use BB rods.
I could be way off with this but I thought rods were the same but pistons were different on account of the 16 valves.

[The Saint of Killers]

You'll think me stupid and I won't blame you I'm one of those people that loves the engine numbers to match up.

Not so distant past example:
I searched far and wide for an orginal (modern) low km BF GTP and paid top dollars for it. Reality is that I could've built a monster for half the price using an XR8 base (had all the GT bits) and still added FI for less but I paid an extra 20k just for a number on the VIN saying it came from Ford that way. It's silly when you think about it.
Car is sold now

The Sierra has done relatively low kms and when I found the books and service history suddenly my "keep it ridgy-didgy" instincts started to kick in. I know it's not rational and it's not a GT.

I based the build on an old suzuki engine builder that used to work these motors. I don't think he was very popular in the end from what I read, great products but poor service.
Has anyone recently had success working the 8V?

[The Saint of Killers]

Also I should probably edit.
Fricken suzuki codes are so confusing to me.
Took me 3 months for the penny to drop that a SJ413 was not different from an SJ70

I've may have confused G13BB with G13B
***I want to use the swift GTI components
1.3 DOHC***

[MrRocky]

Compression is key if you want any measurable increase in power. Whilst the 4k carby is good and behaves well you going to want to cram more air and fuel than it can offer in standard form to make hp.
More compression, more air in more air out.
But... it will suck offroad and loose nearly all road manners. Custom efi would be better. Still likely only reach stock g16b power for triple the cost and less torque

[The Saint of Killers]

Thanks guys, my replies may be out of order. I am still in the screening process.
On that note is it 3 new topics or do replies count?

[alien]

What about putting that stock motor on a shelf and swapping in a G16 efi engine... It's all bolt in so you can revert back to "ridgy didgy" later if you need/want to (you won't)

[Gwagensteve]

It’s absolutely not silly to buy an original car with a desire to keep it original. A GT-P is a desirable car and more desirable the more original it is. A Sierra with aftermarket carb(s) exhaust, inlet, thermo, and internal engine work isn’t original. It’s like the XR8 you describe. You won’t ever be able to put it back to standard once the engine is built unless you tear it back down to put stock pistons etc in it.

The issue is that an XR8 with GT-P bits in it is likely to be quite a good car- certainly better than a stock XR8. The Sierra motor you’re looking at building is unlikely to make the Sierra better.

There’s a reason g16B swaps are common and building G13ba’s isn’t.

[The Saint of Killers]

alien wrote:

What about putting that stock motor on a shelf and swapping in a G16 efi engine... It's all bolt in so you can revert back to "ridgy didgy" later if you need/want to (you won't)

I did consider that at one point but if I was to swap, I'd go the GTI motor.
Issue is space in the shed, I could ask my mechanic to store it but I don't want to put them in that position.

Are there really no successful 8V builds?

I was under the impression that even under-powered and in stock form, the Sierra's were very capable on sand and up slopes?
I thought adding some ponies would really only enhance it's natural capabilities.

[The Saint of Killers]

The below link is what gave me some semblance of hope

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V549K58wcqI

Just to clarify, I'm not discounting the hard work of the members who have sunk in countless hours of R&D to discover the best combinations.
I acknowledge the fact that the G16 engine transplant is the smarter, cheaper and most effective option.
I just want to explore if there's a way to make the 8V a capable contender. If I can make it work, then that's the goal achieved.

[Gwagensteve]

Suzuki's are capable on sand because they are light. Their performance in steep terrain is limited by gearing and carburettor. Power has very little to do with capability when 4WDing, despite what many people believe. I've had engines of 50-100hp in my car and the engine itself made no difference as to where I could get the car.

A sierra isn't underpowered - properly geared, there's nothing at all wrong with the G13 - suzuki designed the motor with the widest possible spread between the peaks as possible. The big problem with the G13B is the carburettor. The process of driving the car until it stalls out, being unable to restart, then rolling back out the obstacle, getting it restarted, clearing it out, then repeating is a nightmare. EFI eliminates this. Sidedraft carbs do too, buy they come with their own compromises like brake clearance and difficultly of running a proper air filter.

Yes, you can make more power out of a G13B by moving those peaks closer together and higher up the rev range. The question is will this make the car better? Most people on here would say it won't, irrespective of the expense and effort. 4WD's need torque all over the RPM scale. Moving the torque peak up in order to increase overall HP doesn't make the car a better 4WD.

To a certain extent you can work around that with lower gearing, but a car with a narrow power band and little bottom end torque is hard to live with, even with deep gearing, because sooner or later you want to creep through something off idle and the car will work against you.

The best way of making an 8V motor a capable contender is to convert it to EFI. Swift TBI can be adapted, or you could use JDM TBI from an Escudo. (Late US market Sierras were 8V TBI) It's not as good as MPI, but at least it will run when a carb motor won't.

The GTI motor is the least desirable engine for a Sierra. They are as hard to fit as a G16B Baleno, have completely the wrong power and torque curve for a 4WD, are often half flogged to death, and have ancient EFI with both an airflow meter and a distributor in a pain of a spot. the OMG100HP is completely negated by the rubbish torque curve for a 1200kg+ 4WD.

[Gwagensteve]

The real issue here is what your definition of "capable contender" is. Personally, I don't think it has anything to do with the engine.

If you compare the way a sierra performs to, say, an LS swapped large 4WD or a tuned turbodiesel, the sierras will appear to be underpowered, if, however, you compare where a sierra can go to where those large, heavy 4WD's can go then you'll see there's not much to be gained by adding power. When I had the 660cc motor in my car it would outclimb a big 4WD when being driven on the starter motor

If your focus is road performance or sand then perhaps adding HP is worthwhile - they're two realms where more power doesn't hurt, although, it's almost always torque that's more important than horsepower, and increasing torque is very difficult.

My road car moves quickly because of it's high torque peak. I very rarely ever use maximum horsepower, but quite frequently demand peak torque. Low RPM torque is what makes a car accelerate quickly, and maintain it's speed on hills.

[The Saint of Killers]

Fantastic response Steve and Thank-you!

I'm assuming money is better spent on gearing, airlockers and sorting out reliable fuel.

What if I was to use the RV2 260 Torquer Cam? Hopefully it would still behave on the highway, which no matter what, I would have to drive on to get to the decent beaches and trails.
Completely understand regarding EFI, No carby will ever be as good as EFI especially up slopes, I steered away from Webber for this reason.

I will look further into an EFI conversion however say I kept it old-School, how well does the ZOR CV kit perform?

And the final spanner to throw in the works.
M45 charger setup as a suck-through on intake side, will it fit without cutting the damn hood?
I noticed the Camden kits were avail but they replace the Aircon and I just (at great expense) purchased an aircon kit.

I can't even look at the damn car to take measurements, it's in the panel shop at the moment getting sprayed.

[alien]

If you're this much of a sucker for punishment do something like the 1.0 Ford EcoBoost hahaha

[The Saint of Killers]

Hahaha no way man, you're just being silly.
I'm actually going to strip down a 09 Prius and run the worlds first Toyuki Serrius. All on a budget of $2300 AUD.
....FACT

[Gwagensteve]

I find the hoops people jump through to avoid EFI much, much more complex than converting to EFI.

G motors don't like boost, and carbies don't like boost. If you are adamant you wanted to build a boosted G motor, it doesn't make any sense to start with a carby 8V, where you have the least chance of success.

I don't know anyone who has run a CV carb. i'm sure it's better on angles than a regular downdraft carb. It's also expensive though - I reckon you'd be $1K in by the time you have the car running properly with that carb installed. It also looks like running a functional air filter will be very difficult with that setup. add in a cam and installation and you're putting a lot of coin into this with unknown results.

Packaging an M45 as a suck though will be very difficult, and will retain neither the character of the G13 or any sort of originality.

How much on and off road work have you done with your car to determine it needs a very expensive engine build?
What tyre size and gearing do you run?

Bench racing ideas is fun, for sure, but there has to be a problem than the bench racing is trying to solve. Suzuki make two three ~100hp motors that are easier an cheaper to fit than anything you're planning. You've ruled them out on the grounds of complexity but on the other hand are talking about a supercharger which will have you tearing your hair out (and likely a shed full of broken G13's) in no time.

If you want to do something different, that's great, but it still has to be fit for purpose. Doing something different isn't the end in itself - it has to be a different way of solving some other problem.

[The Saint of Killers]

I think we may be on different sides of the same coin. I agree with many of the points you put forward and I don't believe you're discouraging the 8V idea but simply reinforcing the importance for deciding my end goal.

You're correct that I do enjoy the planning phase of a build and I assume that's what you meant by Bench-top Racing? (haven't heard that term so I'm stealing it )
I call it the R in R&D!

Original being somewhat ambiguous in the automotive world. My default position with this particular vehicle is to retain the original power-plant and fundamental design characteristics.
I don't view a SC as ruining the character because the impressive feat for Suzuki was accomplishing so much with so little (1.3 litres).
I'm not obstinately opposed to changing motors, I did exactly that with the Celica I built years ago, I just try to avoid that as first solution.

To answer your question and seek further insight, let me first start by saying, this is my first off-road vehicle.
My areas of understanding are more suited to performance (racing) applications., I am not a mechanic but I am handy, what I can't do myself I outsource (or due to my work schedule). I do however - at great pain to most people like to know what they are doing, how they achieve it and how it operates on a technical level. That's the fun part for me, not so much for the mechanics who work on my cars

I have not looked at gearing yet (but I know it's something I would need to change).
Tyre's again I'm unsure. I'm currently running new TOYO AT OPEN COUNTRY (they look slightly larger than stock but I don't know their size) - they came with the car at purchase.
It has 2 inch lift with Old man Emu springs - (I'm told they are OME, not sure how I find this out) This I need to modify to make it less harsh on road. My GF refuses to be a passenger for long.

1) As for my main aim, I would like to drive on the freeway without too much trouble at 100kph
2) Would prefer better road manners (I know it'll never be amazing but surely I can improve this from the deathtrap feeling I have currently in strong side winds on the Expressway)
3) Most common off-road would be beach driving
4) I have not done any 4Wding in the Sierra but have done in a friends Patrol (very occasional) - So I am green when it comes to this, I have no idea how much I'll enjoy this. I race go-Karts and ride motorcycles so that takes a fair chunk of my hobby time. My aim would be to have some capability for casual 4wding and trail driving. that being said I may love it! GwagenSteve, I'm at a loss to answer this concisely. How do I measure what level of terrain difficulty I would expect it to climb?
5) I would strongly consider airlockers, I need an air compressor anyway to pump my GoKart Tyre's

If there's a way I can achieve this all with the 8V
That's what I'm here to do

[Gwagensteve]

Thanks for providing that context - it makes a huge difference to help me understand where you're at.

You can achieve all of the things you describe with the standard 1.3 litre engine. Sierras have been doing the things you describe in standard from for many, many years. I don't know what coin we're on the different sides of, I'm strongly of the opinion, based on what you've explained, a standard car with corrected gearing for your tyre size will do everything you need. A built/supercharged motor won't improve the ownership experience, it'll turn the car into a project. The best suzuki is the one that's drivable, not a project sitting at the mechanics or a car you're afraid to drive because the clutch slips/it pings if it's hot/it broke an axle/it overheats/it won't start hot etc. . If your engine is worn or damaged then consider replacement with an EFI engine like a G13BB, which will be more cost effective than even a stock rebuild on a G13BA, whilst adding power and reliability. If a supercharger and all of the supporting modifications it requires won't change the character of the car in your opinion, I can assure you a G13BB won't. G13BB's were a factory fitment in the last Sierras, built under licence by Maruti in India.

Find the size on the tyres and let us know what that is, then we'll know how far your gearing is out. This makes a huge difference.

It's easy to identify OME springs, they have holes in the leaves about 40mm from the ends to accept a plastic anti friction disk. no holes = not OME.

OME springs are the softest riding Sierra leaves by some margin, but if you genuinely have 50mm of lift you have the wrong spring rate for the weight of the car. OME are designed to provide a maximum of 40mm of lift, and if they're not brand new they shouldn't even be delivering that. Many people buy heavy duty OME leaves believing that more lift is better (which is false) and the ride is poor as a result. Check your tyre pressures too. 20psi is the placarded pressure for the (very lightly constructed) factory tyres. Many people mistakenly overinflate their tyres to 30PSI+ and then complain of poor ride and lateral stability on the highway.

Confirm your tyre size, we can help advise on gearing, sort your ride, (it may have generic aftermarket shocks fitted which will also ruin ride quality) add a rear airlocker, and get out and enjoy the car. When you identify something you'd like it to do better, consider which thing you'd be prepared for it to do worse, and use that as a guide, because every modification compromises the car in some way. (except an airlocker)

The more modified a car is, the less it's driven. Mine's very modified. It hasn't been driven for well over two years. People with standard sierras they can drive all the time are some way in front, even if they dream that it would be perfect if it had whatever modification.

[The Saint of Killers]

You're an absolute legend Steve! Thanks mate!

I swear, I will build this car right and get myself out of the Noob section!

I have emailed ZOR regarding their sidedraft kit to see what I am up for and what I can expect from the kit.
I definitely have an irrational bias for carb motors. Go-Karts require everything you can throw at them for an extra few hp and I just love the smell and sound of those engines screaming to high hell.
Unfortunately it must also cloud my financial sensibility. Sending a 2 stroke in for modification can exceed the price of a 4 cylinder rebuild.. and all for 3hp

This whole thing reminds me of a video I watched some time ago where Keiichi Tsuchiya and another driver compare highly modified straight 6 JM vehicles.
They absolutely loved a carb converted skyline, commenting on the intake sound and the smell of the fuel.
...... ....it came last...
In its defense though, it was against a Mines R34 hahaha

I built a Toyota motor with twin sidedraft carbies. When running right (that's the key comment), there's honestly nothing like it from a fun and possibly purist perspective.
None of those vehicles had to climb hills though.

I should know the tyre size tomorrow when the guy doing my paint and panel gets back to me.
For airlockers do you suggest ARB?

And for the sake of forum rules, should I start a new thread when it comes to discussing suspension, gearing and all the rest. Or should I pm you?
We may have captured some other people interested in building an 8V.
..I'm almost certain they've been converted to G16s or G13BB's now by this stage aswell

[The Saint of Killers]

Also your comment on the tyre's is bang on! I do have them over inflated past your recommendation.
I have been running 34psi - 36psi

I just assumed, if it's good for the coupe, it's good for the Sierra

Does 20 psi have any significant negative effects on speed, economy and handling?

[Gwagensteve]

Comparing a very highly tuned 2 stroke to a 4WD motor isn't relevant though. A 4WD motor has to start and run under all conditions. It has to have the broadest possible power band. It has to run at angles, and be able to restart on angles. It has to be able to lug and cope with huge changes in load, temperature, fuel quality. It has to be able to drive the car just off idle and respond smoothly to throttle inputs so each time the car bounces the revs don't flare and you break traction.* A 4WD motor has to have a deep oil pan so it maintains oil pressure on big angles.

That's why 4WD motors have relatively low HP/litre. They're just a tool to let the suspension, gearing and tyres do their job. When I had the 36KW F10A motor in my car, I could still break traction offroad. Once you've broken traction no amount of extra HP is going to improve things, all more HP does from that point on is make easy tracks look hard with lots of wheelspin and breaking stuff. An engine that can hold 1200rpm on a steep climb is far more useful offroad than a motor with an extra 10hp.

* interesting aside about throttle response in a 4WD. Landrover used to have very, very long throttle travel in their cars. (this is back when they were rover V8's and mechanical diesels) You'd never accidentally give it full throttle, because it was soooo far away from "normal" throttle openings. This was to make the cars as smooth as possible to drive off road and easy to modulate the power. Since since drive by wire, Landrover have different throttle maps for high and low range. In low range the throttle feels super doughy and unresponsive, but idle speed is increased to improve off idle smoothness, and they use anti-stall. They're all counterintuitive for "performance" motoring but off road they make something like a defender very easy and relaxing to drive, almost as good as having an automatic.

My point being you need to relearn what makes a car work when it comes to a 4WD - Its a fundamentally different environment with very little crossover to road or performance vehicles.

As for tyre pressure, you may notice an increase in rolling resistance, but that's just a comparison between massively overinflated tyres and tyres at the correct pressure for the car. I'm sure if I put 60 psi in my commodore tyres the rolling resistance would feel low. Handling will improve at 20psi. Economy won't change significantly - Sierras aren't economical to begin with due to antiquated engine design, mechanical losses and aerodynamics. The effect of rolling resistance is minimal.

To give you an idea of how stiff LT tyres are on a Sierra, if you do the 4PSI test on a Sierra with LT tyres on it, the "correct" tyre pressure on road comes out at about 12 psi. 20 psi is already sort-of overinflated.

I run my own car at 20 psi on road but once ran it at 16 and it handled much nicer. Rolling resistance is a big deal for my car though as it's heavy and runs 13.5" wide tyres, so I compromise at 20 on road.

[The Saint of Killers]

And to all the other readers or those coming in part way, I wasn't seriously comparing a purpose built 2 stroke race motor with a G13BA!
My pride is fragile so please don't confuse my flippancy with mindless ignorance

I agree that my approach needs to change.
Slow engine speeds, torque, traction.

Quite an interesting read learning about the Landrovers, it's a pertinent comment as it highlights how exactly the engine should behave should I choose to build it.

I'm curious about the suspension I have installed.
I was going to take it to a shop and let them sort it out but I think I may need to research it further.

I've seen comments about OME springs and taking a leaf out.
I may need to look at some really decent dampers to also help my cause.

Slow day at the office so I've priced up a locker

And to the readers again, despair not! I am still gathering the information for a decent 8V build - it just won't ring it's head off at 6000rpm.

[Gwagensteve]

No no, I understand you weren't, the idea though that there's some inherent "character" unique to the G13BA that is worth preserving is the bit I don't get. They're just a bland, relatively low performance motor to do a job. If you didn't know which engine was in which car, you'd say the same about a G13BB or G16B in a Sierra- they're just a tool. Obviously the G13BB and G16B are efi so run better and make more power, but they all sound the same and have very similar power delivery.

Whilst the G13B (GTi) has "character" - it's unfortunately the wrong character for use in a Sierra.

When suzuki built a heavier car than a Sierra and realised they needed more torque, they stroked the G13BA to make a G16. If you want to try and make an 8 valve torque monster (a small, monster, but a monster nonetheless) I'd start with a G16 bottom end and use the G13BA head. This has smaller valves than the G16A head so *should* promote cylinder filling at low RPM. I drove a G16A Engined sierra setup something like this, I think it might have had a Vitara carb on it and some sort of cam. It went quite well even pulling 35's with unfavourable gearing but like most bitsa G engines, it was super fragile and eventually seized. G motors are open deck and as such are pretty flexible. The failure rate once they've been apart is very high, and few people can justify the machining cost to rebuild them properly. It's common to have ongoing head gasket problems if suffer an initial failure. As such, I like to keep block and heads together and treat them as a unit. Once the rings are shot the engine is probably not economical to repair.


With some tri-y extractors and a long collector, as much timing as it will tolerate with 98 and ignition improvements, a G16 built like this would probably feel quite good up to about 5500rpm where it would fall on it's face. It would probably pair quite well with a Vitara three speed auto and tallish gearing (maybe a 1,0 litre transfer and 31~32" tyres.) which would mean it should still run the highway OK but around town and on trails and sand it would be pretty effective. It's likely to make about the same torque as a late G16B, so about 30% up on a stock sierra, which would feel dramatic.

A lot of cost and work though.

[bumstein]

Gwagensteve wrote:

the idea though that there's some inherent "character" unique to the G13BA that is worth preserving is the bit I don't get. They're just a bland, relatively low performance motor to do a job.

This to me is the character same with many other cars!! Mini 850 for example is right up there for character and class IMO

[Gwagensteve]

The A series has to be one of the most tunable (and tuned) motors ever though, because it was starting from such a low base and a lot of engineering headroom. Same can't be said for the G13.

[The Saint of Killers]

Gwagensteve wrote:

No no, I understand you weren't, the idea though that there's some inherent "character" unique to the G13BA that is worth preserving is the bit I don't get .

It's purely emotional, however I do not fall heavily into this category.
The best way I could describe it is this, imagine an enthusiast that hasn't driven a Sierra in 30 years. They bought one new, loved it but sold it regrettably a few years later.
They want to relive those days and they find two for sale, one has the original motor, the other has a transplant. Which do you think this person is more likely to choose? That's the character piece right there (I promise he's not a straw man)

Without knowing them personally I believe people such as Seinfeld, Leno and May would fall into this category if you see their work, I certainly know enthusiasts that are like this.

Personally, I fall somewhere in-between. The enjoyment for me is trying to get the most out of what's there, sometimes against practicality.
I admit, I'm abandoning reason and often times money to achieve this result. I'm also a walking contradiction because I understand it's just a damn machine, it's just a damn car and it's just got a damn job to do.
That's possibly the Clarkson mentality, it's certainly my girlfriends sentiment.

Forever the contrarian, I could highlight we to are just "things" that comprise mainly of empty space and stardust. That life is meaningless until we insert meaning into it.
but... that's just waaaaay too far down the rabbit hole for a 8V build.
hahahahaha

Hopefully my humour has translated throughout this thread.

[Gwagensteve]

We're not talking about air cooled 911's though. Current values show that a stock or appropriately modified car are worth about the same money. Owners are mostly sad their stock cars aren't worth lots of money and the modified car owners are mostly sad that their modifications aren't worth anything at sale time.

The most sought after cars are those with engineered, legal, EFI conversions.

There aren't enough people who want an old stock sierra to push the price up much, and those people want a completely stock car, not one with a suck through supercharger or sidedraft carbs or big tyres or an airlocker. Stock is stock. I'm telling you to keep your car stock and enjoy what it can do or modify it effectively.

[MrRocky]

Most sierra owners would be lucky to last 18 months in one before it gets scrapped or sold.
The percentages say there is a high chance none of this eventuates and your car is sold withing 12 months for sub 5k

[The Saint of Killers]

Hahaha well I certainly appreciate the cynicism.
Would you be tempted to place a bet on it MrRocky?
I could put the money toward the parts I've purchased

I'd say the percentage is already slipping in my favour considering I've owned it over a year already and have just paid the bill for paint and panel. We all know that's not cheap